SPEAKER_01 0:01

This is History for the Reckoning, a podcast that dives deep into the history that's hard to hear but critical to understand. Season one, American Concentration Camps. The story of World War II Japanese Incarceration. Welcome to episode two of the podcast. Last time we learned about the tens of thousands of Japanese and Japanese Americans who made the West Coast home despite steep racism before World War II. Today we'll cover the period between Pearl Harbor and the forced removal of the West Coast Japanese to concentration camps. Helping us learn this history, we're joined today by Emily Inoue Huey. Emily is an author whose work in both fiction and nonfiction has dealt closely with this history, particularly her novel Beneath the Wide Silk Sky, that was set entirely in this period. Emily, thank you so much for joining me today.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

So starting with December 7th, the day that we'll live in infinity, what was the experience from your research or family stories? What was it like to hear this news in the Japanese-American community, particularly that Pearl Harbor had been bombed?

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Oh, I think mostly, I mean, you know, you can't say one particular response for a whole group like this, but I think overwhelmingly it sounds like it was shock, just shock. There had been rumors, I believe. There had even been some newspaper editorials about how something like this was going to happen, you know, um, but no one really thought it would. And especially the Japanese Americans really didn't think this was coming. Um, I remember interviewing a man who lived here in Utah. I live in Utah, um, here in Utah, and he just said he couldn't believe that his family, that his family's country, so he's Japanese American, he couldn't believe his family's country would have bombed his country. You know, just that idea of it it just seemed unbelievable, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Yeah. So I understand that directly after Pearl Harbor bombing, the US government was already at action and arresting people. So yeah, tell us what happened immediately after Pearl Harbor within the Japanese community.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Well, you know, um for the time, news traveled incredibly fast. Like I think that within less than an hour, there were news reports of this happening. When you think about that, at that time, the way communication, everything was by telegram, you know, um, it was amazing that things were coming out that quickly. Radio broadcasts were coming out um that soon. And then going right back to regular programming. Um yeah, uh within 24 hours of Pearl Harper's bombing, over 700 men had been um arrested. They, these FBI agents would go out and they would um they would go to the members of the community who were leaders. So these are people like bankers, reverends, um teachers, Japanese language teachers especially. Okay. All of these people would be Isei, which means first generation, right? These these men who were the first to come over from their um from Japan.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

But if they were not American citizens.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

But if you were here in 1941, because of laws that had been passed, anti-Japanese immigration laws, by 1941, it means you've been here at like three decades at least, right? If not more. And so these men had been here for quite a while, but they were leaders in this Japanese-American community, and um, they would come, usually in pairs of two, wearing these dark suits and hats, and they would take them. And um they would take them for questioning, usually, but then they wouldn't come back, is is my understanding standing about when especially at the beginning. And um it was, it was, I think, particularly difficult that um these women often didn't speak English. You know, they were they were also usually from Japan, and their their husbands had been going out into the world and doing things, but they'd mostly been staying at home. And so these women were left at home with these children, not knowing where these fathers were. Some for, you know, weeks and months, some for even years. I mean, it there are people who didn't know where their father was until after the end of the war. So it was it was particularly traumatic, I think.

unknown 4:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Yeah. And you mentioned that these were leaders in the community. So the American government has just snatched up all of these community leaders. So who fills that void? Where does the leadership come from after this?

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Oh, you know, um, yeah, especially in a Japanese community. I don't know if you're familiar with Japanese culture, but there's a huge deference to the elderly, right? They are, you know, the bosses. Um, and so now they're these men have been snatched, um, and particularly those who are leaders. And so it kind of leaves this vacuum. And um sort of the second generation we called the Nisei, they sort of kind of step up and fill that role.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Um, these are the ones who are American citizens, the first born here.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Yeah. So the their parents came from Japan, then they were born here. And so because they're born here, they're citizens. Um, and mostly, you know, they speak English, maybe speak some Japanese, but mostly speak English, you know, um, uh it's a it's a different generation for sure. And and my understanding is the WRA or the re war relocation authority actually really kind of um, oh, what's the right word? Encouraged the JACL, which was a social club, the Japanese American Citizens League. They really encouraged the JACL to kind of take that role. Um and they did for the course of through the course of the, you know, this time and then also through the incarceration, the JACL kind of took that role.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Okay, so it's the second generation, the NISAI that are old enough to fill the leadership void, but specifically this organization, the JACL, the Japanese American Citizens League.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Yeah, that that eventually came. You know, at the beginning, I think it was just people helping, you know, NISA just helping in general. But eventually in the camps, I think they even had a more significant role.

unknown 5:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Yeah. So what was the position of the JACL? You said the government had encouraged the government as a the War Relocation Authority, which was an arm of the government, had encouraged the JCL or at least the NISAI to step up. So what was their relationship with the government after this encouragement?

SPEAKER_00 6:12

I mean, I don't think they were ever officially part of the government or working for the government, but um they were sort of like, you know, there are in different places chances for there to be block captains and things like that. And often those two roles went hand in hand. Um, and I would say that JACL, I think some of the leaders talked about it, and they really decided that um the best thing they could do was show their loyalty to this country and show how American they were. And so it was really truly we are going to cooperate, we are going to, you know, do what sacrifice what we have to to help our country in this time that's really difficult for our country. Um, it really was a time when um I just don't think we've seen anything quite like this in terms of the cooperation by the group that's being oppressed.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Yeah, it is really interesting because my generation comes from stories of the civil rights movement among the black community, this assumption that if the government tries to overstep, you will push back. But I mean, just a different mindset, like you're saying, like, oh, Pearl Harbor had just happened. There was a lot of anti-Japanese propaganda, so it's horrible. But I guess at least a little bit understandable how they got there.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Yeah. And I think um, you know, I've thought about this a lot. You know, what is it that created this? And I think in some ways, it's a vestige of their heritage, right? Like um in Japan, if you ever go, even today, you know, when we there were the tsunamis just a few years ago, um, people do not loot, people do not riot, people cooperate. And if they need to walk 16 miles to get home, then they walk 16 miles to get home. You know, things like that. There um there is really a sense of honor, I think, but also um a sense of the community over the individual. I think America tends to be kind of radically different than that. You know, it's individualism on steroids. Um, and so I think maybe that maybe opened the um door for something like this. Um, I'm not sure exactly. But yeah, that is the decision that was made by the by the group.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

So the initial response of the government had been, let's round up the community leaders. Uh, we know this ends with the incarceration of over 120,000 people, but what were the the first steps that the government and the military took, particularly to the West Coast Japanese?

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Um well, I know that before before there's any you know forcible relocations, um, we have things like the curfew. So they set a curfew for all Italians, Germans, and Japanese who were aliens, but also for all Japanese Americans. That's the only group that it also applied to the citizens, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Oh geez.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

So Japanese Americans, Japanese, Italians, Germans. They were all um banned from certain areas, and then they had a curfew generally from about 8 p.m. to 6 a.m. You know, as things went along, uh, that different areas were a little bit different, but that was generally the curfew. And then they were also put on a five mile travel radius, um, uh, what's the right word? Restriction. So they could only they could only travel within five miles. Um they couldn't go further than that.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Oh, so school or work is five and a half miles away, tough luck.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Yeah, you're not, yeah, you're not allowed. So um, that was one of the um big things that came out first. They also were required to report and um turn in things like guns, cameras, um, radios. Sometimes like obviously two-way radios were considered a risk because they thought that they would um uh maybe communicate with the enemy, but also, you know, sometimes radios in general. I mean, um, yeah, there were a lot of things like that that they were supposed to turn in. Um yeah, and it was just kind of a time of starting to see that things were really changing. Um, that this wasn't just I don't know, the reasonable response that they thought it might be.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Yeah. So from these interviews you've done or any family stories research, what was the feelings in the community at this point? The leaders are telling them comply, do whatever the government asks you to do, but every individual has their own feelings.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Yes. And I think the responses are across the whole board, right? I've heard people who said, you know, they were really angry. I've had people who were so shocked, but I've also heard people who were, you know, really committed to just doing whatever they said. Um, so I've I've heard a lot of different responses on this. Um my feeling is that it was just an incredibly hard time. And there were no right answers, you know. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Absolutely. So one of the some of the stories that I've heard are these terrifying, or I should say, these very sad stories of people feeling like I need to prove how American I am to the extreme, to feeling like I need to destroy any semblance of Japanese-ness within my home. I wonder if you can share any of those stories.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Yeah, lots of lots of individuals um threw away, like for instance, if they had weapons. So many people came here with samurai swords. Um you know, it's like it's a it's uh something that's passed down from generation to generation. It's this heirloom. They're old, but they're a weapon and they're very Japanese. And so people would uh lots of people would bury those or throw them away um into water. Um, I've heard about there are lots of stories, particularly in the big cities, of people, you know, in in like Japan towns, where they'd get a big bonfire and they'd all throw in their kimonos or photos that might have um made them, you know, just showed how close they were, photos and letters that showed how close they were to people who lived in Japan. Oh um it's it's really sad because there's kind of an erasure that comes from that, right? In terms cultural erasure. Um, but yeah, there were people were willing to give up a lot to try to seem American, to try to fit in, to try to not seem like a threat.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Yeah. Ultimately we know it was ineffective. The government was already set in motion what they were going to do. So February 19th, 1942 is Executive Order 9066 signed by President Roosevelt. Can you tell us a little bit about that and how the community felt when it happened?

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Um, well, I mean, it says that you can exclude people from certain areas, right? That's the big overall arching idea in here in this. And at the time, I don't think people were quite sure exactly what areas, exactly what it would mean.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Um And it wasn't even specific about which people. So yeah, you know, didn't even say which people, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

But it was like a very scary moment. I think it's a moment when some people are like, oh, something's going to happen. Um, I've read in some of my grandfather's journals, like they started really speculating what's coming. Um yeah, I mean, what would happen is these people would generally come outside and there would be in these Japanese communities, um, they would come outside and it would be somewhere on a fence post or on a um a uh light post or something like that. You know, it would just be there for them to see and it would just be like, what does this mean? What what's going to happen? You know, it was kind of very scary.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Oh, you mean there were notices like of the executive order or notices from the government?

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Notices of the executive order.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

Okay. Yeah. So that the government made sure everyone was aware.

unknown 13:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

What was the reaction of the American people at this point? Pearl Harbor being so fresh. And from our last episode, we learned many Americans had never even met a Japanese person.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Yeah, I mean I can only go off the polls at the time, but there was a poll that said that 93% of Americans thought that this was a good idea, specifically in regards to Japanese aliens. So people who weren't born here, 93% of Americans agreed that it was a good idea. Only 7%. Well, actually, I think it was even less than that, who said they thought it was a bad idea. And then there were it was a small percentage that was undecided. And then if you look at um for you know Japanese Americans who were citizens, people who were born in this country, it was still over 50% that agreed that this was a great idea. So, I mean, this is in March of 1942. So uh I would say overwhelming res uh overwhelming support from the American public at this time. Um and if you think about that, it's kind of uh shocking and eye-opening. Um, because it almost throughout most of my life, you know, whenever this has come up in a history class or um, you know, in conversation of any kind, um people overwhelmingly have thought this is one of the um the dark moments of our history in this country. But 93% thought it was a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

I mean, that that just tells you what specifically a good idea to remove, even lock up this entire group of people.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Yeah. So I think um it shows you what like anger, um, war, um, propaganda, what all those things can sort of convince you of in times like this.

SPEAKER_01 15:31

Yeah, you mentioned propaganda. What was the propaganda of the time in relation to the Japanese that were living in America?

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Oh, it was so ugly. I mean, it's just full of stuff about um them as being almost inhuman. You know, they're they're always portrayed with these teeth that look like rat teeth, and you know, they're portrayed as being almost like um oh rodents, I suppose. And and in terms of just the number of them too and how they're coming for you and uh dirtness, just all these different elements are brought up in if you look at this, the propaganda of the time. And and definitely that they're a threat that you know we all have to unite to stomp them out. By the end of World War II, 13% of Americans were in favor of of exterminating all the Japanese. I mean, that's the world. Yes. This is like a this is just a terrible, terrible.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

13% are like, let's genocide this entire crazy.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Yeah. Well, and and you know, they have these atomic bombs. 13% of Americans thought that was a great idea just to kill them all. It's it's just a sign of how much hate can just infest a community.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

Um, obviously they're at war. They're extenuating circumstances, but you'd hope that you'd never be in that 13%, you know? Um so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

The only parallel within my lifetime has been directly after 9-11 with feelings within this country about uh specifically Arab Americans, but all practitioners of Islam. And it was an uncertain time for many of those people who felt like they were under threat. And thank goodness they did not have this large national response. But certainly the propaganda, the individual feelings, it's horrible. And it still happens today.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

Yeah, Norm Mineta, who was a Japanese American who was in this um in this situation, he was one of those incarcerated. He worked for um George Bush at the time. And he always talked about how when 9-11 happened, George Bush turned to him and said, We won't let what happened to you happen again. You know, I don't know how well those promises were kept and things. Um, that's something that lots of people debate. But um I do think, you know, it would be great if we could learn from our mistakes.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Yeah. So I wonder if uh just to personalize this history, uh, up to this point, uh, if you have any of the family stories or just some of the research, some personal stories of the experiences during this time period, Pearl Harbor before the first even voluntary removals.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

The FBI actually came to take away my great-grandfather. Um, he was one of those leaders in the community, Esei, first generation, who they came to take. And they took him down for questioning to um to the city center. And um kind of an amazing thing happened, which was that, you know, my uncle particularly, who was a who was uh American citizen, he had a lot of contacts and he knew people really well. And my grandfather, my great-grandfather also knew people in that area. And these people who had worked with him, who had brokered produce with him, things like that, they ended up going down to the city center. They found where these FBI agents were questioning him and taking these people. And um, they actually stood up for him and said, Hey, we know this guy, we know he's not a danger, we know he's not a threat. And, you know, almost unbelievably, the FBI agents listened and they let him come home. And it didn't mean that he didn't avoided incarceration completely, but he was able to stay with his family, which changed the course of my family's lives, you know. Um, so I think that's a really good example of like what sometimes speaking out, you know, how we can support others, how we can speak out for others. I don't know that anyone thought they had a really good chance of getting him out, but they they did it. And that's that's a pretty neat thing. And for some reason, that that great grandfather, he lived right near Stamford campus. I don't know why, but for some reason that um that group did a lot for my family. They did a lot to support them through that time. Um yeah, I don't know why.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Yeah, that's great for sometimes there are people doing the right thing even if the predominant feeling is to do what we now consider to be the wrong thing.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

So uh as removal starts, there's two parts. There's the Japanese were forced to be removed and then they were incarcerated. How did the removal start? How did they, I guess, yeah, first off, how did they find out this was even going to happen? They learned about that executive order, but when did the specifics and how did the specifics start coming down?

SPEAKER_00 20:00

They would have new bulletins that would come. Um, and the bulletins would say, this is the date that you need to be ready, you'll be taken, this is where you need to report. Um and by and large, most Japanese people, Japanese Americans, did what they were told. You know, they they they reported on the day they were supposed to. There were some who uh resisted, and their stories are really interesting. Um, but most of them evacuated. One thing that we didn't talk about yet was that there was a period, a very short period, where they were told you can remove yourself voluntarily, right? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Um so I think Okay, so they knew that there was going to be the government forcing you to move, but they said, hey, if you want to, you can just leave.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Well, I don't even know if they knew they'd be removed, but they knew they were supposedly banned from there were these areas that they could be excluded from, right? So January 19th, the exclusion order, FDR sent uh signs it. And then like, mm-hmm I think by the end of that month, uh General DeWitt had come out and said, you know, if you want to here's some zones. If you want to get out now, get out. But I would say it was less than a month later that they realized that wasn't really going to work. Um if you think about it.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

Some people were allowed, I mean, were allowed to, some were encouraged to leave of their own accord. How many took up the call and what kinds of people were even able to?

SPEAKER_00 21:21

I don't have numbers on that. Um, but if you think about the fact that they'd shut uh one thing we didn't talk about was after um Pearl Harbor, they'd shut down all their banks. So there was no money. You know, how do you go find a new apartment or home without money? So there's all the Japanese banks have been closed. Um, if you think about people who had planted crops, that's the case in my family. How do you leave your crops? Um, you have if you think about you have uh loans out on these crops, uh, you you have to make a go of it, right? Um and then one of the biggest problems was most Japanese Americans, 90% of Japanese Americans, lived on this West Coast. Coast, you know, Oregon, Washington, California. So if you don't, if all the Japanese Americans are there, they don't have people inland usually who they who they can go to, you know, who they can go to to start a new start. Um, they don't have contacts. And so pretty quickly it became clear this was not like a lot of people were not going to be able to do this. And so by a month later, they've already actually created a new law that um people are prohibited from leaving. They have to stay where they are so that they have track of them, so that they can keep track of them. And you can't leave without military approval, which you know no one gets. So um at that point, it became, you know, forced removal to their assembly centers. Um, that was really the only option.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

So you mentioned that they got these notices that said, here's your date and time to report. Uh what were what were the details? How long did they typically have, or even some specific stories? What were they allowed to bring with them? What were they told to expect?

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Well, so they were generally given about two weeks. There are there are cases as short as two days. Um, but in general, it was around two weeks. There are a few who got a few more, three, you know, four. Um, but that the average was two weeks.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Um and they can only three weeks from these people had farms, as you mentioned. They had loans and obligations, and it was all businesses to wrap it up.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

Yeah. So, you know, um, they're told they can only bring what they can carry. So just two suitcases a piece, basically. Um, and I don't know if you've ever fact for a trip, but that's that's difficult. Uh, if you think about um the fact that they had to bring their own silverware, they had to bring things to eat off of, they had to bring bedding, they had to bring coats or anything that they wanted to wear.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

You know, as oh, so the camps eventually did have bedding, silverware, but you're saying they just didn't know.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

They brought their own bedding. Okay. Mostly. I mean, I think once they got to certain places, they could have like, you know, the kind of those blankets that um they give soldiers and things like that. I've seen some of those in pictures from certain uh, you know, from in the camps, but they didn't know what they would have. And so they brought everything they thought they might need. And they weren't given like mattresses and stuff when they first got to the assembly centers. They had to, they were given um sacks that they would put straw into, and that would be their but like they they didn't have any furniture. I mean, what they took was what they knew they'd have. And so um, very difficult. I know in the case of my grandmother, like they tried to store all their things in a Japanese uh Buddhist church. It ended up being burned down, so they lost all of that. In my grandpa's case, they had like these crops that were, they were going to lose their farms because there was no they they had taken out loans on seed and different things to run the crop. And there was no way now that they had to leave it, that they would um be able to pay back those loans um or pay their mortgages, things like that. And so they would lose their farm, but they did have tractors. My uncle Henry had tractors, which was a very big deal at the time. Um, people still were still using horses and carts in some cases. So having a mechanized tractor was a pretty big deal. And um his neighbors were really neat and they said, you know, we'd we'd love to, you know, hold on to those for you, take care of them. And my understanding is that he told them, well, go ahead and use them, you know. Thank you so much for taking care of them. Go ahead and use them. And they said, Don't worry about it. We won't even use them. They'll be in the same condition when you come back. And so, you know, there were some good people. There were some good people during this time.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

So, in the case where you didn't have good people that were willing to safeguard your things, uh, I imagine you'd have to liquidate everything. You don't know when you're coming back, you don't know what you'd have available to you.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

Yeah, you liquidate everything for pennies on the dollar. You know, I've heard lots of stories of people having to sell their china or their mother's sewing machines or their pianos or whatever for nothing, their houses for nothing. Or just leave it there, you know, just leave it and people would come in and take it when they wanted to. Um, you know, even even like pets, you know, they just there's they couldn't bring them. If they couldn't find a home for it, they just had to leave it there and hope something good would happen.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Yeah, I guess you say it's selling it for pennies on the dollar. I imagine that's because all the rest of their community, the typically white community, was aware these people were gone in two weeks.

unknown 26:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

So you can demand anything.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Yeah, you can demand anything. You know that if if you don't take it, that it'll be there later, you know, or if if this person doesn't take your dill, maybe the next person will. So yeah, there were people who would even come in and kind of like just kind of take over like all this stuff so that it was like people had businesses based on this model. So um, yeah, it was the it was a sad time, I think.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Yeah, like looting by a different name.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

So when we get to that end of that typically two weeks, what was the reporting like? Where did they go? What yeah, what was that day like?

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Yeah. So I mean, I think uh I think up around 120,000 people were eventually incarcerated. But in this initial roundup, I think there were like 98,000. Um, and if you can imagine, the government doesn't have anywhere to put 98,000 people.

unknown 27:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

Um, so they um mostly used fairgrounds, places like, you know, if you think about Charlotte's Webb, the state fair, um, they had these state fairs, places like that. Um, they had racetracks. I think total they had around 15 official assembly centers plus a couple like welcome centers or something like that. They they were essentially also assembly centers, but they had people go to these places. My family ended up at Santa Anita Racetrack and at Puallop um fairgrounds. And um my aunt, I remember one of my aunts telling me that it was just awful because they sent you down the same barbed wire uh chutes that they sent the cows and the pigs through. And she just felt like an animal. And I guess sometimes people would come down, like people who are really angry at the Japanese, would come down and like jeer and point at them and say ugly things. But also at the same time, a lot of times friends would come and they would kind of be there to just support them as they were taken. Um, so two sides of one coin, right? And um, yeah, then they end up in these assembly centers, which are essentially livestock housing units. And um my aunt again told me like they ended up at this racetrack. And so they lived in, I think the family. So the great grandfather, his kids, and then their little new family, because her mom was one of, let's see, how do I say this? So great-grandfather, uncle, aunt, and her parents, and then all the kids, the four kids, they all lived in two uh horse dolls.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

And um literally horse stalls.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Literally horse stalls, yeah. Like they had put planks, I guess, like uh they had put some sort of like wood on top of the floor, but there was still manure under it. And the walls had been whitewashed, but they haven't been cleaned first. So, like I remember her telling me the story of like when it got hot, the manure would like bubble and um pop the whitewash on top of it. And anyway, just awful, awful conditions. They had a one-year-old baby. If you can imagine, there's nowhere to set this baby. There's no privacy because you know, horse stalls aren't like all the way to the ceiling, you know. They they have quite a bit of space at the top, and so your neighbors can see in, or you have to put up some sort of sheet, or try to find something to give yourself any sense of privacy. But more than anything, I think it's just very dehumanizing. Yeah, really, really.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

Literally dehumanizing, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:05

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

So tell us about the assembly centers. Uh, were these uh we imagine later when they're in these large camps in the middle of nowhere that they're fairly literally prisons. They're surrounded by barbed wire. What was the assembly center like before the camps?

SPEAKER_00 30:20

You know, I've seen pictures that do have barbed wire in them.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

I don't I haven't researched this particular thing, but I've seen pictures where there's barbed wire in those around those chutes and things like that. There were fences, definitely. Um, and I imagine that the top, at least, there was barbed wire. But I do I have heard stories of people like being able to slip things through the fences sometimes, or people were able to come visit them. They the Japanese Americans couldn't leave, but people could come visit them in these assembly centers, which generally weren't super far from their homes. Um and uh I mean, I think they were all in California, Washington, Oregon. I think there were some in there was at least one in Arizona, too, maybe two. Um, so they were fairly close to where they had been taken from. And so people would sometimes come visit them. But yeah, there were soldiers, there were guards, there were guns, there were all those things. Um, yeah. It was it was a detention center. You know, some people, some friends came to visit my family, and um, they brought with them a lemon uh melon because the food in these places was terrible, you know, it was all like kind of slop, you know, if you can imagine. They're feeding these masses. And apparently, like Japanese Americans weren't used to this food, and they were just getting sick in you know, mass quantities. So anyway, but they they brought this melon and when they got there, the guards, you know, sliced it in half with his bayonet to make sure that there was that they weren't trying to sneak anything to them.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

Uh so what was the uh I guess I should ask first, about how long were people in these assembly centers before they ended up in the more long-term camps?

SPEAKER_00 31:59

Yeah, I I think it varied, but for my family it was about three months. Okay. Yeah. I think it some people long a few months longer, some people.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

A semester of school.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

Yeah. Yeah. So they were there while they were um building camps, the the what would eventually be the permanent camps um around the country.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

So what do you do with three months of time? Like what did they have to do?

SPEAKER_00 32:23

Oh, you know, they didn't, you know, that's one thing about uh this group. They they did what they could. You know, they made it as nice as they could. They tried to create a school, they tried to make, you know, things to do. They um they participated in the war effort. Um, you know, they've made nets and um camouflage nets and things like that um to help with uh the soldiers, help the soldiers in the war. Whatever assignment that the army would give them, they did. Um, still trying to prove their loyalty. So yeah, they did what they could with their time.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

So this three months comes to an end. They're told you're being taken. I guess. Do you have you ever heard any stories of people being told for shipping you out? Or like what was the transition like?

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Yeah. So my uncle tells the story. He says they were told they were going go, and they were put on um trains with the family, but they he said there weren't any like great seats or anything. There weren't, it wasn't like a regular train. It was more of a, you know, group mass mass relocation kind of train. And they had um they had uh windows on these in these trains, but they paid they blacked them out with black paper. And they said, Don't open these, don't don't let anyone see in, don't look out. And they weren't told how long they'd be on the train or where they were going. And my uncle says he was on the train for three days and three nights, I think. And um he just remembers, you know, it's so hard to sleep and taking turns trying to lie down and things like that. Um, but they didn't know where they were going. And then at some point, my aunt says that they were stopped while they were the train was getting coal, and a woman came to the window and um knocked on the window. Well, they didn't know it was a woman, though. It was they just had this blacked-out window, right? And someone starts knocking, knocking. They've been told not to open them. They don't open it, they don't open it, and then finally someone's like, I can't take it and they open it. And it ends up being a woman out on the platform, and she has this basket of clothing, uh, blankets, mittens, scarves, whatever, you know, and she starts as soon as the window opens, she starts putting it through the window and she gets as much in as she can and she says, Where you're going, it's cold. And it turned out after three days and three nights that they ended up in Wyoming and it got very, very cold, I think in the negative 30s or something that first winter. And um, and this family from California, that's where my aunt and uncle were from, they really appreciated what she had given them, um, as you can imagine. Especially when, you know, the barracks were like not insulated. They had like something called tar paper on them, which is about the thickness of a cereal box. That's all that was between them and this Wyoming winter. Um it ended up being very, very important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Oh, and they're from California. So even as they brought their two suitcases with everything they thought they could use, they probably didn't have winter coats.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Yeah, they didn't have, they didn't have the right equipment. Yeah. So they're very grateful.

SPEAKER_01 35:19

So Emily, we've talked about how all of the Japanese from the West Coast were being removed. Uh, how did they determine who was Japanese? Or big air quotes here, how Japanese would you have to be before I thought you are inherently dangerous, you should be removed.

SPEAKER_00 35:34

I think it was 116th. And um it applied to everyone, whether you are a child, whether you are an adult, whether you're very old. I mean, you know, you look at some of these pictures, these kids are one-year-old all the way to up till 90 or nine-year-olds who can't even walk in. You just think these people are not threats, but um, it didn't matter. It applied to everyone, it even uh applied to children who'd been adopted into white families. It applied to people who are married to people who weren't Japanese. And so in those cases, people would have to decide whether to come with their spouse or their children or send them to camp and stay out and uh uh just terrible, terrible questions to have to face, right? Not knowing how long they'd be in. So there were, you know, people were like, well, if it's a few months, then you know, maybe you should stay and keep the business going or whatever. Versus, you know, do we do we split up? Like that's also terrible. And do I want to let you go somewhere? You don't know where you're going. Am I willing to let you go somewhere you don't we don't know anything about by yourself? Like it was just a terrible, terrible decision to have to make.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

As the final bit of the history, uh, from the stories you've heard or the history you've learned, what was it like stepping off the trains at these camps? And I guess start with where did they find themselves? What did they experience?

SPEAKER_00 36:53

Yeah, so my understanding is, you know, they'd get out of these trains and they'd be in the worst places, you know, all these camps, these permanent camps, the government took land that no one wanted, you know, that they could get for cheap. So it was always in a desert or a swamp, uh, mostly desert. I think there's just one swamp. Um, but just terrible, terrible places, hot, dusty, or cold, soggy, you know, places. And my my family ended up at Heart Mountain, Wyoming, which today is quite beautiful. But at the time it was just completely uncultivated with dust, you know, and um just nothing around for miles and miles. And my grandma told me that when she got off the um train, she just cried because it was just so awful. And um, and just there was just nothing. Just it's very, very dusty. So when you she said when you take a drink of your coffee or your milk or whatever, you take a sip, and then by the time you were ready for the next sip, it would just be covered with dust and you'd have to pull that all out and then try again. Each each each time you took a drink or a spoonful of your soup or whatever, you'd be fighting the dust. Um, and your face would always be covered in just dust. So I think I think it was pretty disheartening. It was really disheartening when they got off. And then, you know, when they saw the first their first impression of the camp was terrible, it wasn't finished. And so, you know, the the barracks that they lived in were completely, you know, unsuitable for living through winters and things like that. It was just kind of a poorly constructed shed. And um, the bathrooms, there were no partitions between the toilets or any privacy in the showers. And it was just, again, dehumanizing, right? I think over time they did a lot with those areas, and I'm sure you'll interview another guest about that time period and what they did to flourish and make the best of what they had. But um, I think when they first got off, it was pretty disheartening.

SPEAKER_01 38:55

Yeah, and I'm sorry to end on this disheartening note, but we will pick up with the camp life in our next episode. So, Emily, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for sharing your family stories and this research that you've so exhaustively researched. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

Season one of History for the Reckoning is made possible by support from the JACL Mount Olympus chapter, as well as generous financial support from the Takahashi Family Foundation and the JA Community Foundation. The music was produced by Patrick Coffin. If you want to support the show, follow us on Instagram at History for the Reckoning. Sign up for our newsletter at History for the Reckoning on Substack, where you'll also find the show notes for each episode, or support us financially through Patreon at patreon.comslash History for the Reckoning.