SPEAKER_04 0:01

This is History for the Reckoning, a podcast that dives deep into the history that's hard to hear but critical to understand. Season one, American Concentration Camps, the story of World War II Japanese Incarceration. Welcome to this special episode of the podcast. I'm your host, Spencer Ford. Over the last 10 episodes, we've learned the history of Japanese World War II incarceration, as well as the varied efforts to right the wrongs of the past. Today we'll be talking with a group of young Japanese Americans to see how this history is relevant today. So let's introduce everyone with your name, generation, and any family connections of any to the incarceration.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

I'm Parker Suzuki. I'm uh fourth generation uh here in Utah. And none of my family uh had to go to the camps.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Hello, my name is Ali Nakamura. I'm a Yonsei slash Gosei, um, which is fourth slash fifth generation Japanese American. Um my grandfather was in Topaz internment camp. Um my grandmother was um relocated from Southern California to um Keatley, Utah, which was a relocation um area just outside of Salt Lake. And then my um grandfather was another my other grandfather was in Soldier Summit, and my grandmother Eiko Nagasawa was in Salt Lake um farming. So yep, a mixture of uh different experiences.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

I'm Kenzie Hirai and um I am Yonsei Gose. And my grandmother was incarcerated um at Topaz Incarceration Site, and my grandfather's family was in Idaho farming during World War II.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

My name's Ethan Hirabayashi. I'm fifth generation, so Gosei, and neither of my grandparents or family have been um incarcerated within the internment camps.

SPEAKER_04 1:51

Awesome. Thank you guys. So a diverse set of backgrounds and experiences all within the Japanese American community. So first question I have for y'all that we can discuss together is when you were growing up within the Japanese American community specifically, what did you hear, if anything, about the incarceration and who did you hear it from?

SPEAKER_02 2:08

I uh got to learn um about the incarceration from my grandmother. She was quite young during incarceration. She was two years old when she went to camp. But her older cousins and other people that were incarcerated inspired her to tell her story. Um, so other people in the community like Gina Masaka and Ted Nagata um were vocal later on in their life. And so she was younger and could see them do that. And so she would come to my class and I would see her present to other classes. Um, so I was lucky in that way.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

Yeah, one of my earlier memories um that I can recall first hearing about um incarceration was when my grandpa Ted came to my fourth grade classroom and spoke about um his experience at Topaz with my class. And um, like Kenzie mentioned, my grandpa seemed to be a pretty vocal person in the community that really um wanted to share and educate people in the community. And uh so I think growing up around that, that's where I was exposed as a as a kid.

SPEAKER_04 3:14

Also, it sounds like so far uh family members were like the primary source, at least for the two of you.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

How about you guys? Uh yeah, my grandma always told me about it growing up. Um she would tell me about how a family nearby uh to our farm in West Point, Utah uh sponsored us, and that was uh the reason that we were um able to stay, according to um the oral history that was passed down, um, which we are very thankful for as a family, um, because now my grandma and my parents both live on that same farmland uh that my parents, my great-grandparents farmed on um during the war. Can you tell us what you mean by sponsored us? From what I've heard, they said that we were our family was um a great family and that we were amazing members of the community and the church at the time. And that's that's as much as I know.

SPEAKER_04 4:04

Yeah, I love how you say oral history, like this is uh a family communicated thing. That's awesome. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Uh for me, I think one of my first memories, uh growing up, like you know, I'd hear about World War II and then tournament camps. Uh but one of my like earliest memories that I feel like hit me the most was when my dad took me to uh Delta, Utah to go visit the Topaz sites, and there was nothing there, it was all it was all flat, none of the buildings were still existing. I think this was 2014 is when I you know really first remember it and could absorb it. And going to the Topaz Museum and you know learning about all the different landmarks that we drove by and um how you know thousands of people were in this really desolate area and you know and they made it work. And I I'm really appreciative for my dad and my family and my parents for exposing me to that um part of our history.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

Um I also grew up going to the Topaz site um like since I was born. I was I've been fortunate enough to have like that connection, and my grandmother has been able to take me as well. And so it's been um really special to go with all of my family members and other descendants. Um I'm involved with the Topaz Museum now as a board of trustee, and so going with descendants and people survivors or um whatever folks would like to be called, because I've been told not to call some people survivors, and yeah. Um, and so um being there and seeing them remember, you know, like Ethan said, it's blank and there's nothing there, but then seeing them remember where certain things are, or like the fact that the JC were in the JCEAL credit union and there is like a place where you can say there was the credit union and that's where it was housed. Um so being able to go there has been really special. Um, and going there with a pilgrimage or with other descendants has been uh really cool.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Yeah, um, similar to Ethan and Kenzie, um my grandpa Ted was helping out with building the monument or designing the monument at Topaz. So growing up, I remember going down and um, you know, walking just where the barracks were, and he would share some stories. But, you know, being younger, it was hard to really wrap my mind around what I just, you know, I was just like, it's so hot, it's so dusty, I just want to go back into the car, you know, very feeling very uncomfortable for those like 20 minutes we're walking out and about. Um but I always remember the story my grandpa Ted talked about where originally when they designed and put up the monument, um it got shot up and and it, you know, it got all vandalized. I think people were shooting at it as target practice. I don't, you know, know exactly the intent, but um, when they put up the American flag and they re um redid the monument, then they didn't have any issues after that. And so I think that was a very interesting um story that he he shared.

SPEAKER_04 7:15

Aaron Powell I wonder what learning within the J community beyond family. You guys mentioned that you had specific involvement with the Topaz monument and the historical site. I wonder maybe for these other two, uh, outside of family, was there any communication about the incarceration that you remember that stuck out to you as you were growing up?

SPEAKER_03 7:34

Uh I definitely remember hearing about it uh throughout school when we would learn about it uh during history classes, when we'd have a brief topic on it during lessons about World War II. And I remember whenever we'd start talking about it, I would feel all of the kids look at me, um, which was definitely an interesting experience. Um as the only Japanese kid in my community, like in the most of those classrooms. Um, it was definitely a very different experience uh growing up hearing about that.

SPEAKER_04 8:02

If you'll let me push, tell me more about that.

SPEAKER_03 8:05

Uh yeah. So I I grew up in uh West Point, Utah, uh predominantly Caucasian uh population. Uh so it would just they all knew I was Japanese. I I didn't hide it. Um I'm very proud of my heritage. It just felt very uh like all their eyes were on me. Um like it we were talking about me and my family, even though my family wasn't the one in those camps, but I could tell that they thought it was me and my family that they were talking about.

SPEAKER_04 8:36

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Um I think for me, my first experience was in middle school. I don't I don't know if I should shout out the middle school's name, but uh um, you know, in that everyone took a Utah history part of their education, and there was like, you know, not even two pages full of information about Japanese heritage within Utah, um within Topaz. And I remember seeing that and I I recognized the buildings because some a lot of those buildings with the JCC or um Japanese um Church of Christ and the Salt Lake City Buddhist Temple, they would show pictures of of those within the textbooks, and that would be it. And you know, that Topaz was a huge part of and the internment camps in general were a huge part of American history that you know a lot of people seem to forget about in this you know current climate. So that was um, you know, one of my within the education system that I could recall.

SPEAKER_04 9:45

I'm wondering, uh over this podcast, we've heard that for the Isai particularly, but definitely also the NISA generation, the most common reaction to questions about the incarceration was we don't talk about that, just silence. Uh but it sounds like from what y'all describing, family told you. So the people that were close to you were telling you. So have you ever seen hesitance to talk about it? To what degree?

SPEAKER_02 10:04

Yeah. And I think that's why me and Ali say that we're lucky is like that's not very common. I think it's even today. Yeah. Okay. And I think it's more rare that like from the beginning they have told their story. And um it yeah, there are a lot of folks that just don't feel like they can talk about it or they um I work, like I said, with Topaz Museum, and a lot of people would say, I just couldn't tell my family like I couldn't share it with my kids, but I can tell an oral story. I mean oral history maybe, because it's just too painful or they just couldn't open up in that way. And so yeah, we I feel very lucky that I had family members that were uniquely vocal about it and were, you know, like emotionally able to share what they were able to share. Um, and so it's interesting that they were impacted it probably differently um emotionally, but they were able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Yeah, no, I I s I do feel like we see more people open with it because we're heavily involved with our within our communities. But what of from what I've observed over the like the past years being so involved with the JCL and you know other community organizations is the people that don't talk about it as much, or it's a very painful part of their their past and their family history, is there don't feel as much integration within the JA community. And when I talk to people, I'm like, oh yeah, I'd love for you to come to one of our Obon events or to something or Nihon Matsudi or even a JCL event. It they seem a little hesitant because it's it's a little painful for their family history to, you know, come to some of these events. And you know, I I'm not gonna pressure anyone to to to be with uh other Japanese Americans, but I I have noticed that a lot more. It's it's I feel like it's not the majority, but there is some people that I have come across.

SPEAKER_04 12:10

Do you feel like there are people of your generation, this like under 30, that that is that who you're talking about, or is this older people? Like where were you yeah?

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Yeah, it's definitely older people. Within a younger generation, um I think it it's the same way. Maybe they don't they could want to talk about it, but their parents or their grandparents never told them about, you know, their experiences or their struggles um during that time or whether they were put in a camp or whether they were escaped the camp. Well not well, not escaped from the camps, but um re yeah, reloc voluntary re relocated. Um I just i it it's really tough because you know everyone has such a far background. Japanese Americans have been in the US for such a long time compared to you know other um ethnicities.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

And I I think that illustrates kind of like the dilemma and why it was it's so hard for folks to conceptualize what happened during World War II is because it there's so many stories and so many experiences. And so um for me it's interesting to see my own journey on like reclaiming my history and how other Japanese Americans are doing that, um, especially if their own family isn't sharing their story directly with them, um, they can still kind of reclaim and look do the research on their own or go to somewhere like Topaz Museum or Hount Mountain um and learn about their history themselves.

SPEAKER_04 13:44

Aaron Powell I was gonna ask, are any of y'all aware of people of this generation who this was kept from them or purposefully omitted, maybe?

SPEAKER_02 13:53

I have met Sanse that um grew up and never knew that their parents were the ones in the stories they were reading about. Um or um you can talk to like really famous people that in that like in LA, they grew up in LA reading about their parents with that worked with redress, and then they're like, oh, the camp they were talking about wasn't like a summer camp. It was like you know, and so that's like a common story of like people will say camp, and they would say camp with their friends at, you know, when they're playing cards um and they're back in LA and they talk about camp. Um and that's um typical, at least in my grandmother's experience. She was so young that she was shielded from a lot of the things that um her parents had to go through. Um and like she spoke English and Japanese, but then after the war, they only spoke English, and so she rem out outside of the house. And so remembering those types of things um really impacted her in that way.

SPEAKER_04 14:57

So in a previous episode, we were talking to John Tataishi about the reparations movement, and he had kind of an aside that was about when Sansei would talk to each other about camp, and they would use camp kind of like how you were describing. Maybe you could confuse it for just being like a fun summer camp. Uh, there was like a hierarchy in their minds of like, oh, you were at one of the hard camps, like you were at Thule Lake, you were at Manzanar, that kind of thing, and they had this hierarchy built. Uh, as you guys have introduced yourselves, you described differing connection familially at least to the incarceration. I wonder if you felt any sense of like I this is a horrible save, like maybe there's a ranking in your head, but this feeling of like I get to talk about it more than someone else does, or I have more at stake than someone else does.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

I mean, uh for me, a part of me feels very grateful that my um family members didn't have to go through that. Um I know there's a lot of opportunity to talk about it, but it's it's it's still like a touchy subject knowing what people go through when you people share stories and like I don't wish that on anyone. So I do feel a little grateful that my family, you know, they were able to make the right moves that they didn't have to be in the camps. And I who knows, I wouldn't maybe I would not be where I was today um if my family did end up going to one of the camps.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

Um, I don't know about Ali, but for me, having family members that were incarcerated and in the evacuation zone, and then family members that were um farther inland in like Idaho potato farming, they were both Japanese American. Um, but they went through very different hardships. So my grandfather was a young man, you know, going to school with predominantly white class members and like going through that alone through World War II was like a different hardship, I'd say. And then having to be incarcerated and then relocate in somewhere like Japantown here in Salt Lake City. Um I think for me being a descendant of an incarceration site, I've always felt a lot of respect from the ra the rest of the Japanese-American community to let me speak my truth and steward that history because they also knew my grandparents and my grandmother and her cousin who was very vocal. Um, so I feel lucky that I've given I've been given a lot of space to speak and um take up that space and other people have supported me. Um but I I think there is like a there is a differentiation that people are like, oh, well, you're a descendant and like that's part of your history, but it's it's kind of um it's accepted and supported by the rest of the JE community.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Yeah, that's a good question. I haven't really thought too much about how like the hierarchy itself, as much as like it being an anchor of, you know, growing up, I think Parker alluded when growing up kind of being aware of being a minority in this or in space and kids, you know, being kids are asking, like, oh, what are you why are you here? Where where are you from? And all these questions. So Topaz, like the connection of Topaz and like a lot of my grandparents being from California, you know, looking at California, you go, oh, why, why don't we live there anymore? And so I always processed the Topaz through my grandparents of like, okay, like how did our family end up here? Obviously it was mixed, but um it was more internal the way I was thinking about it. But I do think that it's important to open up space too for others to share stories um outside of incarceration as well, because I think Kenzie also mentioned there's and Ethan that there's a mixture of different narratives. Like my grandmother that relocated Keatley, she talks about how people in camp were I I think she used the word lucky, just relative in terms of in Keatly, they didn't have any food or like jobs, like it was like really hard to figure out how do they survive. Um so the way she processed and perceived um that at where she was at during relocation, um, I thought that was a very interesting comment from her experience.

SPEAKER_04 19:03

Aaron Powell It seems like all of you have some background of family members who relocated as an alternative to having been forced into these camps. So I wonder just from your background, is there a feeling of I've heard more about the relocation than the camps? How do you feel like the two experiences, if you have both, have influenced you?

SPEAKER_02 19:20

Aaron Powell I think personally, being a descendant, I heard a lot more about being incarcerated and like Ali said, it's a big part of how my family got here. And so I heard a lot more about that. And so I love hearing about like Alice Kasai and other people that were here in Salt Lake, Japantown, and what they had to go through, um, or like the feeling that you would get knowing that like Japanese Americans are going through Salt Lake City in the train down to Topez. Um, so I think there's been space for both stories, but I have mostly heard incarceration stories and journeys that have brought people to different places. Um so I think that dominates the conversation a lot. And there's a lot of room for other stories because they're so unique and less they're more varied than the incarceration stories, which are so varied already.

SPEAKER_04 20:15

All right, let's move on to our next big question for this panel discussion. Uh, as you guys have learned about the incarceration, either from your own research or just from family members telling you these stories, how have you felt and how do you feel like that has shaped or affected, maybe shapes the strong word, but at least affected how you see yourself, how you see your community, but particularly how have you felt?

SPEAKER_03 20:36

Yeah, the the first time I really learned about the incarceration in detail uh was when I went on a trip to Camp Topaz with the Japanese American Student Association at the University of Utah. Uh so it definitely made me feel like I was more a member of the community, learning about um not just my own history, which I already kind of knew about, but about the broader community um and their history and what everybody's different families have gone through. Um I think building that community and feeling that sense of community was really important to me.

SPEAKER_04 21:08

It's almost like it was a positive experience. That learning from it, you got the community building part of it was what stuck out to you at least.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

Yeah, I I I think that was a big thing that stuck out to me. Um, and along with the importance of knowing that history um so we can stop it from happening again, uh or something similar to it.

SPEAKER_04 21:29

Absolutely. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

I think a word for me that comes to mind is um urgency. I think that like when I've um personally I've been really interested in um interviewing a lot of the Nisei generation, being fortunate enough to be really close to all four of my grandparents growing up. Um, you know, I felt just so much love and support and just, you know, I really appreciated that relationship being able to have them. And so as I left for college, I I began to appreciate. More of them in my life and also wanting to know their history, so asking them questions and really interested in more of the personal stories and the idea of memory and how elusive it can be, especially around you know the traumatic events of World War II. I think over the years talking to them, different memories have come up where you know certain things are blocked and wanting to be respectful. But I just feel like it's important to try to capture these stories because, like we were talking about earlier, culturally with a lot of the generations, Isei, Nisei, and even Sansei, people aren't really talking about it. It's just not shared. But I think it's important for us as a younger generation to try to ask questions and try to document so that, you know, for ourselves, but also for future generations and to just be aware in how we can also support and connect with other communities who may be um at threat of potentially going through something where history repeats itself.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

I think when I first initially learned about it, um, you feel a little anger, like that's not in you just like think about like why did this happen? And you hear about the reasonings why it happened where they wanted to protect the citizens, or they wanted they thought they were spies, or whatever stories you hear of why people went in the in the camps. And it makes me, you know, initially it made me really angry and like like how could this happen? It's like kind of ridiculous. Like people that, you know, we've they've shown they're um that they're Japanese American, that they're an American citizen, and you know, they've there's no evidence that they've like done anything to betray the country. So initially I yeah, that that was my feelings. But but now when I when I view it, I think it's a way for the you know community to connect a little. Um where you know we have some great projects as we're doing right now to highlight this. And you know, it's it's one one and done is like not a thing for the internment camps. There should be many stories for years to come or projects about this. So it's also you know another word to put out there. It's inspiring to um how we can, you know, bring our community together and educate, you know, not only the um American community, but but you know, people in Japan, across the world, you know, because some people didn't even know that the camps have happened, which is it's crazy to think about. And um I just I don't know, I think it's very awesome that we're able to share these experiences and and history.

SPEAKER_04 24:43

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 24:44

Yeah. Um, I think all for me, I also feel feel a lot of anger um when you process this or when you hear about it. Um I feel like there's there's anger that each person has to reckon with and like the intergenerational trauma that comes in different ways. Um but I feel a sense like a strong sense of duty to s to speak up when there's injustice or um I think Are you saying just any other any injustice.

SPEAKER_04 25:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

Yeah, I I would say. Um and like seeing my grandparents exemplify that through their activism, whether that was for people that had mental disabilities, whether it was for themselves. Um I for me, I was grateful that my grandma exemplified that. And um, not to get super specific, but during um after 9-11, she saw that there was talk about a Muslim registry, and that's when she went and spoke in um elementary schools and other places wherever she could go, because she could see that that was her history repeating itself. And so for me, it was just very clear. And I was grateful uh that I could see that happening as it played out, but I didn't really realize what she was doing and that she was doing it at that time for those reasons. And so being older and being more active now, um, it's very clear to me. And so it impacts it, it impacts me quite a bit and the way I approach everything, like my career and how I have lived my life.

SPEAKER_04 26:22

Yeah, so thank you guys for sharing the personal effects. I want to transition now into how you've seen this history when people learn about it or lack of learning about it, has affected the broader JA community. So I know the JACL has a day of remembrance every year, so they've made it kind of a focal point of their mission to make sure that it's very public and that their members at least are very aware of it. But yeah, how have you seen this shape, how have you seen this history shape the JA community in your experience?

SPEAKER_00 26:46

I'm not entirely educated about um this part, but it learning more and going to museums about it, about um internment camps was I didn't know there was such a divide with the internment camps, whether people went in the internment camps, whether they didn't, whether they um signed up for the 442nd. I didn't realize that there was so much divide with this. I you know, I thought we were all on the same team. But you know, everybody Oh divide in what way? Um that you know it's maybe Kenzie would have a better way of talking about this.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

And I think this is kind of what you referenced with John Tataishi is like people the loyalty questionnaire that was given in the camps and the divide that happened then, and I think that's why it's so great, just a tangent to hear so many stories from the camps is because we often don't hear those stories of like resisting um the draft and other things that um were or like co-ops that were formed, other um grassroots organizations and organizing that happened in the camps. Um, but yeah, there's a lot of divide, and I think that goes back to you know, shoving one group of people into um a place and just because you think they're all the same and like the problems that come along with that there and the lasting impact that that had, like when people go back to California and they aren't talking to somebody because they're a no-no boy and they said no no on the questionnaire, and um the people that were in Thule Lake later on um were all no-no boys and no-no families. And so just the way that people are viewing that um, and there's just so much history around all of those things and the shame that people had after the camps and the way that they were trying to protect themselves often um divided people quite a bit.

SPEAKER_04 28:45

Okay, so you're talking about the friction that was caused because of uh the loyalty questionnaire as it's kind of a jumping off point, and those who chose to join the armed forces versus those who chose to resist the draft, that kind of thing. So uh it sounds like what you're saying is that tension is somehow still very relevant and still poignant in your experience at least.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Yeah, no, I I mean us together. I mean, that's not like part of the highlight of what our mission, I think, for the J community. But when I do talk to older generations, um, not specifically in Utah, every year when I go to National J A C L Convention for w wherever it is, um, you do hear people still talk about it. And um I I'm not quite sure what generation they are or what their affiliation is, but it's for the older generation it's definitely still something that they they do think about. Um maybe not so much in Utah.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

It's a part of history that I don't think at least for me growing up, I knew that much about. And so it's a surprise to me because it's just surprising to me that more folks in the J community don't know about it, and I think it's a key part of the history that needs to be talked about so that people can see the whole picture. Um and so I'm not sure. Yeah, I think we nef we definitely need to talk about it more.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

One thing that I think people have shared is how um after camp there was like this thing to hide, like this Japanese thing, like your rice cook. I my grandma would share stories about hiding their rice cooker or not speaking the language to really try to assimilate. And I feel like I don't know, you can kind of feel that of like, you know, parents going into these certain jobs that are like, you know, doctor, lawyer, accountant, and then also like assimilating into the communities to not cause any trouble and to stick out. And I feel like a lot of that kind of message felt like it was coming, especially after camp, was like, you know, let's just lay low and try to like assimilate into American society. Aaron Ross Powell Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:54

And where do you see that affecting today? So this is 80 years later. So I understand that message right after the war, but you bring it up now, so that still feels like it's relevant, it's pertinent.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

I can only speak from my personal experience being um, you know, moving out to Los Angeles. Um I wanted to go out to a space growing up here. I, you know, when I'd visit for summer, I'd be like, well, there's all these like Asian people, they're Japanese people, kids. Like I really wanted to try to be in a more like diverse place relative to how I saw my childhood growing as a kid. Um and when I went out to LA, I was met with a lot of um questions about like, oh, you're Japanese, and it was associated with how Japan was at the time. So I felt like I I felt like a lot of shame and disappointment and disappointing people that like I'm Japanese, Japanese American, fourth, fifth generation, but it was like very hard for people to wrap their mind around at the same time. At least some of my peers that were more first, second, Asian American generation. Um, and I felt that's how I felt it as a Yonseiko say was like not having the language and then like not as many maybe perceived traditional things that were attached to what we maybe see as like post-war Japan.

SPEAKER_04 32:09

Aaron Powell So it kind of sounds like you're describing your this generation after World War II uh were effective, that they were able to assimilate to a point that when you encountered people that were quote unquote closer to Japan, you felt like you couldn't connect with them in the same way that maybe you would have otherwise?

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Um maybe not closer to Japan, but more so maybe other Asian American peers of other ethnicities because I think Japan has a very like soft power with like anime or different things where people connect with Japanese culture, which is great. And I always have found this, you know, maybe being a little bit more of a sensitive kid, just finding this friction and constant I feel like I would be constantly disappointing people of not um being what they thought a Japanese person would be or Japanese American. And I don't attribute it totally to it, but I think that it feels like it's kind of the product of, oh, like why didn't we learn Japanese? I think just naturally being in um fourth gen fourth, fifth generation, maybe. But also you hear about stories of people trying to hide that just post-war. And I wonder if like those are products of it of just trying to be as like American as we can be.

SPEAKER_04 33:20

Yeah. No, I love it.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

Thank you for bringing that up. This might be kind of relevant, but I have a question for Parker. With along the lines of the no-no boys, how would like how would you answer it?

SPEAKER_04 33:31

How would you answer the loyalty question? Yeah, the loyalty question.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Because I mean, it could be along anyone else, but you know, the no-no boys, so as the two males on on the imagine having to make this life-changing question in this like small amount of time. Like, I mean they I don't know how much time they had to fill those out, but you know, under that much stress, like, am I gonna go to like what am I gonna do for my life? Like, will I follow my family? Will I s like stick to my gun? And I think that's like what's so crazy about and the controversy with the Nono Boys and the dis decisions people made is they didn't get that much time to to make a right or wrong decision.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

And they yeah, they didn't know why they were answering that. Because everyone did it. Women did it. You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:20

That's uh that's an interesting question. I've uh that's something I've never thought about before. Uh I'm not really sure how I would answer that. Uh I am half Japanese. Um, so growing up, I have always felt a mix of both sides of my ancestry. Um, the Caucasian side, um, where my family grew up in America on my mom's side, um, and then my uh dad's side, which is Japanese. Um, but even them, uh like kind of we were talking about earlier, we're definitely uh assimilated. Like none of my parents or grandparents speak Japanese. Um we all have very American-sounding names, um, but I I really don't know how I would answer that question.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

I've like I've known about the the Nono boys, and till this day I don't even know how I would answer the question.

SPEAKER_04 35:12

So particularly, I mean, this is just the white guy opining. But I'm like, if I was in that situation, I'm answering yes. Yes. Like, if you don't know what the consequences would be, why would you risk it? Yeah, like if you don't know exactly like it's not like I'm going on strike and I know that means I'm getting fired or whatever. But you're like, I don't know what this would mean. And like, man, that's so hard.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Yeah, do you have kids? Do you have yeah, all of these things? And I just wanted to say, like, I earlier also spoke about language, and that was a big thing for me, is like growing up, people would be like, Well, why don't you speak Japanese? And I'm like, Well, do you have like time to talk about why like my family doesn't speak Japanese anymore? Because it's not just like, oh, like a cool thing that I can't do. It's like a connection to our culture. And I think that's something that I've had a lot of gratitude that I have the opportunity to do research around like people that burned, you know, Japanese art because they thought that anything Japanese would um make them look like the enemy, or they're, you know, they're bearing samurai stars in their backyard, all these things that they might not have gotten back. And so I think that for me, especially also being uh hoppa and half white, half Japanese. Um for me, it's very interesting that like my father was also very vocal about being like American, and like I'm American and I'm half Caucasian and half Japanese. And like growing up with him wanting me to know that I'm fully American, because people would call me half American, half Japanese, and that would bother him quite a bit because of this story. And so for me, it there's a lot of that where when I went to Japan, even I had a similar experience to Ali where people would ask me if I was married, but my experience is different because I'm white passing. So people would ask me if I'm married to a Japanese man, or like when my family immigrated and it just wouldn't commute, like they're like, Well, why wouldn't you speak Japanese? Or, you know, all of these things that just don't compute, even with people, you know, that are Japanese or other Japanese Americans, even like in California, sometimes just don't understand the experiencing experience here, even though some of them have camp ties. They go back and they have like a very large community. And so I think that lends itself to why the J community is so close here, but it's very unique. Like there are old Japanese traditions from like the 1800s that we still do, but we don't speak Japanese. So it's just a very nuanced situation.

SPEAKER_04 37:53

As we talk about the incarceration history, one thing that sticks out to me is this gut feeling of if if a government, my government, had wronged everyone that looked like me, I'm never trusting that government again. And yet uh the prevailing, at least by majority, feeling within the Japanese community after the war had been what Ali was talking about, let's assimilate harder. Like let's try to make it so that we're even more Americans, so this won't happen again as a shield, as a protection. What are y'all's feelings about like being American now in light of this thing, which was granted generations ago at this point? But yeah, what do you feel like your relationship with America is in light of that history?

SPEAKER_00 38:30

I mean, I tell everyone my favorite holiday is 4th of July, so I feel like I'm pretty I'm pretty American. But, you know, I just because I say that doesn't mean I have a lot of Japanese uh traditions and values that I still follow. Um I I do consider myself Japanese American. Um my most eye-opening experience was when I went to Japan on a uh Kakahashi, a government-funded trip. I, you know, when talking to the locals in Japan, I was like, wow, yeah, I don't know any Japanese. The little Japanese that I know is super outdated. It's it's language that they use in the boonies now. Um so I I do once I went to Japan, I was like, yeah, I'm I'm American. Um and you know, it's it's nice to have this like unique experience where I have my culture that I that I like that's integrated through my life. Um I guess I I lied. Maybe Obon and Fourth of July are tied together.

SPEAKER_02 39:37

But that shows like, yeah, very Japanese American that those are tied. It kind of shows how ingrained and how in America a lot of our ancestors were. A lot of their children were American citizens and didn't some of them knew Japanese, but some of them didn't. Um, and so they some most of them felt they had no choice but to like continue on in this place that was also theirs, but betrayed them in such in such a horrible way. Um, and so I think that's a big part of the betrayal that they felt, you know, and so that's why with redress, a lot of folks were like, okay, it's a right that's been wrong and it took a long time, but the apology meant more than like the money for a lot of the folks that I've heard talk. Um, and so that kind of shows that they always felt American and like felt like America should be theirs in that way. Um, but yeah, I think my answer, I already kind of answered that I feel very American, good or bad, whatever that means. Um, but I feel like I I own that uh American story, like my history is American history. Um, and so it I just it's very interesting to think about how they thought about being American. And that questionnaire that we talked about um plays into that quite a bit too. Um, and like some people uh refusing to answer those questions.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

With a lot of us being fifth generation, I I may tell a lot of people, I'm like, yeah, I'm fifth generation. My family's been here for a long time. I'm probably more American than like most um people that are white or Caucasian. It's kind of funny.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Yeah, I mean, I guess it echoes what Ethan and Kenzie were saying. Um I don't have any particularly strong feelings about the government. If I try to put myself in that time, like obviously there it are, you know, like yeah, anger about what happened and just having feelings about hearing how the government can do that to their own citizens and feeling like, yeah, it's up to us as a younger generation to remember that history and make sure it doesn't repeat again. Um and but I feel, yes, also very American. I feel like that history is very American. And um, you know, just seeing the Nisei generation to like talking to them, it's like they have that American spirit of like working hard, going through hardship, overcoming, and just being showing a certain strength that's very inspiring. Um, so that's kind of how I process a lot of that.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

This is interesting. I think about this a lot. Who would you root for in the Olympics for gold medal if it was USA playing Japan?

SPEAKER_02 42:19

I don't know. This is this part of the podcast. Well, I'm keeping this for sure. Um I don't know. My I just think it's funny because like some of you know my dad, but like um there was somebody, he works in like a predominantly white office, and somebody asked him that, and he was like, How dare you ask me that? Of course I'm gonna um root for America. And so that's what's funny is like I would pause more so and be like, I don't know, actually. Um just because we're like a younger generation, it I would if I had to put myself in a category, I don't I could never like be an Olympian for anyone. But for Japan, I like have no tie. So like it's just very interesting that like I definitely felt like they didn't think I was Japanese when I went to Japan, but like I felt feelings in like I felt belonging there that I had never felt in America as well. And so like not fitting in at b either place um kind of like goes into my answer to that, where I'd be like, I I don't actually know. You know, like I don't really fit in either place, but I have much pride in like America and that like my story is very American, like I said, like for any group in America, like I would never um like say our stories are the same of like black folks or native folks, but that story of like finding your place in America when it wasn't easy is very American, I think. So that makes me feel the camaraderie with those other groups, but also like going to Japan. Um you could I could see where I didn't belong in America or it it doesn't f quite fit where I did fit there.

SPEAKER_03 44:07

Uh yeah, I'm not sure I'm not quite sure about the Olympics, but I I I love watching Formula One. Um and my favorite driver for the past little bit has been Yuki Sinoda. And that's when anybody asks me, I'm like, well, he's Japanese, like he's he's like me. Um so that's I I'm not sure about the Olympics, but that's definitely something I've experienced before in my life where I kind of like Kenzie was saying, like you kind of are unsure and sometimes have to pick. Um but yeah, I I would say it would depend on the day.

SPEAKER_04 44:38

That is such a I love the nuance. Thank you so much for that. So our final uh discussion topic is from the history, the amount of history that you know, but especially as you've seen how it affects your community, how it affects the country, it's much more in the news today than it ever has been for generations, probably, since redress at least. How or to what degree do you think the community, the JA community, uh should remember and identify with the incarceration?

SPEAKER_03 45:01

Um I think it's it's super important for us to learn and identify with it. Um, like I said, I I felt that sense of community when I went uh with the Japanese American Student Association and learned about that. And that's definitely something we want to, we as an organization want to keep uh going to, right? We're planning our trip for the spring as well to go to Topaz to continue that um little tradition and that learning and that building of community uh so that no matter what hardships we go through, whether that's something like an incarceration or just um having a rough time for one of us uh in our lives, we can be there for each other and support each other through that.

SPEAKER_02 45:40

For me, I think that this story is in a very very American story that every American should be have access to learn about, um, as well as many other histories that we often like when I was in middle school, it was literally like a paragraph about and it mentioned Topaz internment site. And so um just doing better in Utah and states where there were incarceration sites, first of all, and then um in the broader history, and then I think the Japanese American community does a lot, like Day of Remembrance and other things to keep it um talked about and to have more people be exposed to the history. Um and so I think for JA's there are there is room for like other histories to connect to that. So like talking more about redress and like what that meant um and like why Sansei were able to talk about it more after, you know, their Nisei parents didn't really talk about it, and they could use that anger um that righteous anger to do that. Um I think there's a lot more room for those stories um and other stories of Jays that persevered or maybe left the camp early and like other stories. Um, but I uh w outside of the Jay community, there just needs to be broader knowledge, I believe. And I think it's just very important.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

Yeah, I think it's really important. I mean, I've been trying to document history just from my grandparents or just Nisei, um, because I feel like it's important to know your history, where you come from, um, just be aware of how hard the generations, the sacrifice that they gave to give opportunities to the next. And my dad always tells me how important it is to um, you know, like try to improve the quality of life for the next generation. And that might look differently for each generation in different times, but I think that spirit, um, and to just persevere is something that I feel like you can see in a lot of that history, um, especially uh to go through something as traumatic and hard as incarceration. So uh yeah, I feel like it's very important for our community, but for others and just to be aware, um not just for the historical, but to be more sensitive to just other people and other stories and communities of um what others might be going through, especially in America, people come here to want to build a better life, and I think that we all, you know, should try to support um each other through that.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

I don't think this should ever be forgotten within like not only J history, but just American history. Um I'm really glad that our community comes together to at least do a day of remembrance. But honestly, you know, that's I don't feel like it's enough. Because, you know, it's it's it's just as important as anything that happened in American history. Um you know, a lot of people did die through this, a lot of people's lives were were changed drastically, and it's you know, it's what makes it's the United States history. I I think it's something that more people should know about, um be educated about. And just I think history in general is extremely important. Um I think there'd be a lot less, you know, harsh people or rude people or critical people if we learn more history about the country and or just in general.

SPEAKER_04 49:17

Well, guys, thank you so much for having this panel discussion. We I've been so eye-opening to see how this history is relevant today, me as an outsider being able to see this as history, but you guys seeing it as my family's story, my community's story. So thank you so much for sharing your experience, and thank you for joining us today. Season one of History for the Reckoning is made possible by support from the JACL Mount Olympus chapter, as well as generous financial support from the Takahashi Family Foundation and the JA Community Foundation. The music was produced by Patrick Coffin. If you want to support the show, follow us on Instagram at History for the Reckoning. Sign up for our newsletter at History for the Reckoning on Substack, where you'll also find the show notes for each episode, or support us financially through Patreon at patreon.com slash history for the reckoning.