SPEAKER_00 0:01

This is History for the Reckoning, a podcast that dives deep into the history that's hard to hear and critical to understand. Season 1. American Concentration Camps. The story of World War II Japanese Incarceration. Welcome to the first bonus episode. We've talked extensively about the experience of the West Coast Japanese and Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor, but we haven't talked about Hawaii, where Pearl Harbor happened. I'm honored to be joined today by Kelly Nakamura, sharing with us the story of the Japanese Hawaiians and their experience around World War II. Kelly is a historian based in Hawaii with a new book detailing this history entitled Legacies of Incarceration: The World War II Experience of Hawaii's Japanese. Kelly, thank you so much for joining me today.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Thank you for inviting me, Spencer. It's great to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Love it. Thank you. Let's start with Hawaii's history in just like the shortest possible version. Tell me about the Japanese populace of Hawaii leading up to World War II. How many of them were there? What were their cultural backdrop? What were they working in? Where did they come from? So many things.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

So that's a great question. Hawaii's immigration was one of the first places that Japanese immigrants actually arrived to in America. Of course, Hawaii at that time was a territory. So think late 1880s. We're really going to see the widespread immigration of Japanese immigrants. First, of course, Hawaii was a stopping place. First to the islands, then, of course, off into the West Coast United States. So think about, of course, the labor needs here in Hawaii because of the plantations that would actually drive the immigration. So we have kind of two factors. We have essentially the major reforms, which is essentially trying to modernize and essentially push out the peasantry, which is kind of obsolete at this particular time, and essentially the labor needs both in Hawaii as well as in America. So because of the plantations, we're going to see in the pre-war period the Japanese constituting nearly 40% of the pre-war total population in the islands. Again, a very kind of different story from the mainland experience. So the Japanese actually constitute the majority of the population, if you're talking about particular ethnic groups, in the islands prior to World War II.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

So you're saying even larger than native Hawaiians?

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Native Hawaiians by that particular time, because of the effects of disease and Western contact, their numbers had drastically declined. So they in fact were a minority, unfortunately, already starting from this particular time in their own lands. So we see, of course, other immigrant groups, the Koreans, Filipinos, Puerto Ricans, of course, white British and American business owners who would essentially populate the islands.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

And where did the Japanese come from, if we can talk like prefectures, uh rural versus urban, that kind of thing?

SPEAKER_01 2:47

That is also a great question. So Hawaii Japanese have this kind of interesting kind of identity, being from the southern parts of Japan, so traditional prefectures like Hiroshima, Wakayama, Fukuoka, among others. So if you actually ask even local Japanese here today in the islands, many of them will say, Yes, I'm from Japan, and they can actually identify the particular prefecture. And these were areas predominantly rural, dominated by rice production, and of course were particularly sensitive to Meiji restoration modernization efforts. So they would be one of the first kind of peasantry groups to be immigrating to the islands.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

So the Japanese government actually wanted this immigration to happen, or was that just a consequence?

SPEAKER_01 3:36

That is a great question. So the Japanese government, in fact, encouraged this immigration, which was met by equal interests by American plantation owners. In fact, uh the Hawaiian Kingdom at that time was interested in bringing more laborers. This was all, of course, uh before kind of anti-Asian sentiment that would dominate the first part of the 20th century, particularly on the West Coast United States, that would of course end immigration to the islands, but not before literally tens of thousands of immigrants would arrive, bringing, of course, uh families and the start of communities here.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

So you said 40% Japanese, how many generations in would they have been leading up to Pearl Harbor? In mainland United States, uh, the last immigrants would have been around 1917, so the Isei generation would be fairly old by the time Pearl Harbor happened. How was the situation in Hawaii?

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Pretty similar. I mean, we do see, of course, some of the earliest immigrants having by the pre-war period, it would be unfathomable that we would have the third generation or Sansei. But for the most part, we see essentially uh the first generation or the Isei population really kind of dominating the political, economic, um uh social aspect of the Japanese community. So think about newspaper editors, businessmen, predominantly physicians, um doctors, lawyers, uh, dominated by the first generation. Their children would be the up and comers who would in fact enlist um during World War II.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Sure. So, what was the relations between Japanese and other ethnic groups on the island? Uh, because if they were a majority, then it'd be very different from the West Coast populace, where such a minority they had little pockets called Japantowns, things like that. What was the situation in Hawaii?

SPEAKER_01 5:28

So, while we do have kind of ethnic communities and ethnic neighborhoods, so for example, on the island of Oahu, which is of course um still today one of the most populous islands, we see, of course, ethnic neighborhoods or ethnic ghettos, uh, for example, and this speaks to, of course, people who might be familiar with Hawaii, um, in places like Makali, Mo Ili, Um, Kalihi, uh, parts of Waipahu. These, of course, would be plantation areas and also urban areas. Um, we do see, of course, uh, yes, this kind of growing divide between plantation workers and, of course, the emergence of small businesses. So we do see, of course, urban settlement also happening too.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

But you're I guess I'm wondering if uh the Japanese populace was established enough to be like movers and shakers in the community where they're on city councils and that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

That's correct. So, in fact, some of them did occupy political office. In fact, we do know that some first generation actually served as veterans of World War I, which is kind of interesting to think about. Um, we do have kind of this very interesting case of an Ise by the name of Sanji Abe, who served in the territorial legislature, who was a World War I veteran, and who later, in fact, would be incarcerated or interned in Hawaii. So you see that kind of divide or s or or kind of historical span encapsulated with this one individual's life.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Yeah, and then probably the last question before we get to Pearl Harbor, but what was the Japanese community and Hawaii's relationship to Japan, the place that so many of them had come from?

SPEAKER_01 7:01

So, in fact, this is kind of this interesting conversation that I have with people, um, that because of the relatively close proximity of Hawaii, also as an island nation to Japan, um, we do see kind of close ties being developed, and I think um more encouraged in Hawaii. Um, so we do have naval visits by the Japanese Navy, which would be essentially uh the commanding officers would be greeted, um, invited to local banquets. Um, we see the proliferation of Japanese language newspapers, Japanese language schools, um, Buddhist Shinto temples across town, all of which, of course, would be shuttered with the outbreak of war in December 7th, 1941.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

So take us to December 7, 1941. Uh, what was the experience for the average person who happened to just live in Hawaii? They weren't military, they just lived there.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

So, what is kind of interesting when we think about you know the experiences because of these close ties, you know, there's this kind of underlying suspicion or fear or belief that the local Japanese population had, in fact, knowledge or prior understanding of the Japanese attack. And what we can tell right now is that that's actually not the case. Um, most Japanese, again, this was on December 7th. Um, we do actually hear reports about planes coming in as early as 6, 7 o'clock a.m. on a Sunday morning. Um, we do have interviews from residents at that particular time where they actually saw the Japanese zero pilots and the zero planes flying overhead across the mountains. Um, so it's kind of bewildering.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

So they thought, of course, this was you know one of these very regular um aerial exhibitions or practice runs that in fact the Well, are you saying the island did not already have a sense of impending conflict? Like this was a very much a surprise to the residents?

SPEAKER_01 8:54

It was surprised, in fact, where the where the direction that the Japanese came from. So if you look at Hawaii, and if you actually go to Waikiki, um there's these kind of very subtle but not so subtle um indications of the American belief of the direction of the Japanese attack. So Waikiki is facing the South Shore. So when you think about Diamond Head, you can still today see fortifications around Diamond Head, one of the most famous landmarks in Hawaii history. So many of the guns, many of the fortifications were pointing to the south. In actuality, uh the Japanese came from the north. So in fact, the Americans and in fact the local population were literally caught unaware because while they might have anticipated um the intention of a Japanese attack, they were wholly unprepared for the direction, literally the opposite from where the Japanese first arrived. So when you think about it, it's it's kind of bewildering. So people are like, well, how are they caught so unaware? Because they knew about the Japanese military buildup. And I said, Well, uh, still today there's an army museum where it's actually a converted uh military installation, and they actually had gun turrets, you know, pointing out to the ocean and again facing the opposite direction from the south to the north, um, in which they anticipated a Japanese attack. So that is in part um one possible explanation of how the American military suffered such um horrific casualties um because of the Pearl Harbor attack. It was on Sunday. Um it was seven in the morning, it was, you know, when men were still sleeping aboard ship, um, having you know enjoyed a Saturday night out on the town. We're talking about Battleship Row in Pearl Harbor, where literally the battleships were lined up one next to the other. So you didn't actually have to bomb each and every single one of them. You could bomb one of them. The oil, the fuselage, the armaments would catch on fire and would have a ripple effect upon the subsequent ships, literally docked right next to it.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Yeah, horrible. So some of the residents see these planes coming over from the north. Uh, what was the experience throughout the day for those that were non-military that were living there? Were they ever in danger? Or I assume they thought they were, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

So one hidden history that people really kind of don't talk about. Um, while yes, the fighting took place over military bases that were separate from civilian areas, um, we do actually have civilian casualties from so-called friendly fire. People are like, how does that happen? Well, as the American pilots actually launch an offensive, some of them did actually get up into the air, and of course, aerial dog fights would take place, and you don't often hit your enemy target, and these bombs and um machine gun bullets would fall to the ground. And in fact, some of the hardest hit areas would be downtown and Makalimo Ili Ili. And again, this kind of circles back to the beginning of our conversation, where these were Japanese, local Japanese neighborhoods. So even if you were literally miles away from the Pearl Harbor attack, you were clearly aware, and we do have stories about schools being burned down, um, restaurants literally being bombed and destroyed, and they'd be civilian casualties, ironically, Japanese Americans, um, who would also experience uh honestly the impact of the Pearl Harbor attack, literally miles away.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

The US military would fire ordinance trying to hit Japanese planes, and that would miss and would hit civilian targets.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

Correct. I mean, it would just I mean, think about gravity, it would just fall to the ground, these you know, un exploded ordinances in the air at least, would then fall to the ground and literally destroy um certain areas. So, you know, and I say that as you know, my grandparents lived in one of these Japanese neighborhoods in Makali Moili Ili, and still today, you know, residents talk about says, Yeah, you know, that school was burned down and that house burned down. It's just it's just kind of local knowledge, very nonchalant. But it's just, you know, when people think about the impact of war, of course it took place um on military bases, but think about, you know, when the US military is rightfully launching a military offensive, well, the bombs and and the machine gun fire go one way if they don't go. They're gonna go somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Wow. Okay, so uh trying to keep things chronological, on the day of the Pearl Harbor attack, are we aware of stories of Japanese American service members that were in Hawaii and what their experience might have been?

SPEAKER_01 13:33

So literally, in fact, during the attack themselves, and in fact, hours following the attack, um, we do know that the FBI, Honolulu Police Department, HBD, um other officials were literally rounding up Japanese suspects that had they had previously investigated prior to the war. So we do know, for example, um that the FBI had conducted or created a list of A and B of those to be picked up immediately upon the event of attack. So, you know, you hear accounts from internees and their family saying, you know, the planes were still flying over air and there would be a knock at the door.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Literally.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Literally. I mean Whoa.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

They were on top of it.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

They were on I mean, they were absolutely on top of it. They knew who to look for, where they would be, um, their business locations, their home locations, and without any explanation, and with literally just the clothes often that they had on their backs, these men would be taken by officials, arrested without explanation, and literally disappear for at least four years for the duration of the war.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

And so on the mainland, these arrests happened in a similar way, and it was community leaders, business owners, but also things like Buddhist priests and those who ran schools. Is that similar for Hawaii?

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Very similar. Um, but like I also say, it was kind of this very interesting dynamic where, and this is what I argue in my book, personal relationships would also impact who would be incarcerated and who would not. So while we do see the majority of Buddhists and Shinto priests being incarcerated, we also know of exceptions who were literally allowed to continue ministering, holding services, prayer services, memorial services, um, with the awareness and it's seemingly consent of both military and civil officials. Which is kind of interesting.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Yeah, those were uh some Buddhist priests were taken, some Buddhist priests were not taken, or is this across religious lines where certain religions were not taken? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

So it's very interesting where you see, for example, a very interesting experience is this gentleman by the name of Mitsumiyo Totori, who is a Buddhist priest. Um he was in fact um allowed to hold services during the war, and it was well known, uh, for Japanese American servicemen who died or were killed in action or were missing in action for the entire duration of the war. We have another priest out in Maui, um, a female who was continued to allow to minister and and all in awareness and um with seemingly the implied consent of military and even plantation officials.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Interesting. All right, so the arrests happened within hours, the first day. Uh in the the ensuing weeks and months, what was the experience for the Japanese populace?

SPEAKER_01 16:30

So what would be interesting is that because the incarceration of these individuals would occur immediately after the Pearl Harbor attack, so unlike mainland incarceration, where facilities were constructed, and I say that, you know, they were terrible facilities. I mean, sometimes they were, you know, just right. I mean, they were used as horse tracks sometimes, right? It seemed that despite the level of preparedness of identifying these individuals and um knowing the reasons and their acquaintances, um, it didn't, it wasn't consistent with their actual logistics of incarcerating these individuals. So immediately, honestly, local officials, um, the FBI would utilize local facilities. And this is where we see kind of a diversity of incarceration experiences. In Hawaii, um, what was used as incarceration sites, uh, banks, gymnasiums, local jails, um, immigration processing stations. Um, when they finally actually constructed so-called camps, um, internment or incarceration camps, I mean, literally they would be tents on elevated, you know, stilts. So, of course, because it rained, things would flood in a very low-lying area. I mean, so you see pictures of facilities anywhere running the gamut from actual jail facilities to banks, to gymnasiums, to hastily constructed tents located by the waterfront area, surrounded by barbed wire. So, we really do kind of see a diversity of facilities that again are very kind of different from the mainland incarceration experience.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

Yeah, speaking of the connection to the mainland incarceration experience, do you know if there was any thoughts by the Department of Justice or the military to extricate these individuals from Hawaii and take them to the prisons that they'd actually made, the concentration camps, or is it always the plan? Plan is probably a loose term, but was it always the plan to keep them in Hawaii?

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Well, you know, because this was always always, of course, a concern of military and civil officials, uh, the number of Japanese. And in fact, prior uh to World War II, we actually have speculation of, you know, just scenarios that were being run of how could we logistically and successfully incarcerate the entire over 100,000 Japanese that lived in the islands and they realized that it was impossible. I mean, they thought about that. Should we just put them on one island? You know, just just the logistics of that, how would you make that possible? And so, you know, that concern of can we actually incarcerate them? Um, was in fact on the minds of military officials even prior to this war. So they thought about it and they said, you know what? Um, clearly, because of the labor needs, both in the plantations as well as on the military basis, this would be just unfeasible on so many levels. Um, it would decimate, to be perfectly honest, um, the economy and severely hinder the war effort as we're trying to mobilize for the Pacific front of the war. Um, so because of the kind of practical logistical needs of labor and the economics that would be involved, they decided again to kind of do a more so-called humane option of incarcerating only a select number of individuals.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

Which absolutely makes sense of what they should have done on the West Coast, but that's neither here nor there.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

This is where you know people say, Well, you know, why did they do what they did? I said, Well, think about, you know, put yourself in your shoes and say, you know, if you were a military official and you perceive the Japanese to be a threat, um, what would be the most um efficient and realistic, to be perfectly honest, way of hindering the Japanese community? And one way, honestly, is to kind of, in a sense, pardon the metaphor, but kind of cut the head off the snake by taking the leaders of the Japanese community and incarcerating them. But I also would like to add that um this anti-Axis sentiment also extended um to Germans and Italians living here too.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

So we did have actually also, and this is again kind of a unique kind of experience, where German Americans, Italian Americans, were also incarcerated here in Hawaii. And that would be noteworthy because they would actually be the first ones to file the writ of habeas corpus, basically the justification for martial law, a protest against it, successfully ultimately ending um martial law and their incarceration.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Oh wow, that's very interesting. Yeah. So I would say famously, for in the case of the West Coast Japanese, even though the Department of Justice rounded up so many people on day one, and there were many investigations, and I'm sure there's plenty of spy craft trying to figure out if any Japanese Americans or Issei that had not been allowed to be naturalized were connected to Japan. And okay, that's all to say. Famously is reported that there were not any threats that were found. Uh, but Hawaii had a much closer, both in proximity and perhaps even in culture connection to Hawaii. I'm wondering what was found there or if there were any imminent threats that were actually discovered.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

So, you know, that's a question that people always ask, and this is kind of a great question. Um, we don't see We have yet to find kind of any indication of disloyalty, collaboration with uh Japanese officials, even despite this proximity, even despite kind of these kinds of close relationships. So, you know, I always like to say that, you know, personal relationships don't necessarily translate to political relationships. But again, these kinds of connections would be complicated by the fact that we do not see the United States granting citizenship to um Japanese or any immigrants, aliens basically, until the 1950s. Um thereby, if you, as a first-generation immigrant, by swearing allegiance to America and renouncing your, for example, Japanese leadership uh citizenship, you would become a stateless person. So they were I mean, I'm sure people have talked about this, of course, extensively in your podcast, but really kind of that, you know, people always ask, why didn't they just declare loyalty and claim citizenship to America if they were that loyal? And I said, Well, literally they could not. They would literally become a stateless people in the pre-war period.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

I think it is very interesting, uh maybe there's a weird thought, but I'm like, why didn't Japan put in more effort to insert spies? And like, why didn't they have subterfuge and saboteurs in there? That's just interesting that Japan hadn't put in the effort from the military.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

I mean, they do see, you know, there's supposedly a consular agent who was taking photographs of Pearl Harbor, um, and there were you know all these allegations, but nothing was really kind of founded where the Japanese-American population, um, in particular the second generation, uh, would be suspect. And and I share this very honestly, is that in that transition from the first to the second generation, you also see kind of oftentimes, not always, a loss of language skills, kind of, you know, kind of that kind of cultural um allegiance. And think about the majority of Japanese immigrants that we would arrive um in Hawaii. Um, we're talking about plantation, we're talking about uh people who would come from the primarily peasantry class, these were not highly educated individuals. Um, I say, for example, my grandparents, um, again, they're second generation. Um my grandfather was born and raised on a plantation in Kapak, Hawaii. He had a sixth-grade education, and that was entirely common. Um, we do know that certain individuals could read and write, but we actually also recognize that the majority of Japanese plantation workers were illiterate, at least could not write Japanese, could not effectively communicate. Again, think that we don't have you know emails or or texting or telephones at this time. So just the educational kind of requirement of I think international subterfuge or espionage, you know, that would be very difficult to imagine of the average plantation worker at this particular time whose primary concern uh would literally just be paying the bills and the backbreaking labor and toil of the plantations. Um we're talking about working from sunup to sundown. Um during the summer months in Hawaii, sometimes the sun rises as early as five or six, and it doesn't essentially become really dark until seven or eight. We're talking about over 12 hours of working. Um at that point, you're just exhausted. And it's incredible.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Yeah, I don't have the energy to sabotage today.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

There's no, I mean it just I mean, just think about you know, just the educational level, the energy, the effort, and the the compensation that you could potentially get. I mean, your wages were you know very closely scrutinized, your income highly regulated uh by the plantations. Um, you know, when we talk about plantation communities, I mean we're talking about very humble, um, economically downtrodden kinds of circumstances, to be perfectly honest.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Sure. So as the war progressed in the uh mainland, curfews were instituted, bank accounts were frozen, uh things like this started to happen. What was the experience for the populace in Hawaii?

SPEAKER_01 26:26

That would also occur immediately after um the Pearl Harbor attack. We would have curfews, gas rations, um, we would have essentially um, of course, uh patrols throughout the street, blackouts um here in Hawaii um because of the hurricane season, um, but also because of the wartime experiences. It's kind of well known that whenever we have kind of the possibility of a natural disaster or something happening, there's always a run on toilet paper, water, canned goods, spam, of course, here in Hawaii. Um, and that's also because of, you know, World War II. I mean, there was such rationing of um condensed milk, um, produce of all of it, of course, would be go to the war effort of canned meats, proteins. That it kind of creates that um need to stockpile, to be perfectly honest. And this is where you you see kind of the residual effects still today of World War II that's kind of this understood, but not kind of really acknowledged part of the local kind of mentality of okay, potential hurricane, everyone stockpiles, everyone goes to Costco, everyone clears the shelves. That's what happened during COVID, you know, bottled water, you know, tissues, you know, everything, right? And it's like people like, oh my gosh, you crazy Hawaii people. I said, Well, we're used to this, we're used to wartime rationing and regulations and the limits of certain goods and supplies because we are separated by an ocean.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Yeah, and in the case of curfews and kind of uh legal barriers on the citizenry, were those evenly applied? Were there any uh regulations based on race, the way that there were on the West Coast, where the Japanese were not allowed to go without a certain distance from their homes and things like this?

SPEAKER_01 28:16

So martial law uniformly implemented essentially military control over the entire island population. So all civil courts were closed. Um, we see everyone uh subject to uh a military court, which meant you could not launch a defense. Yes, you could not anyone. Um, if you were accused or arrested for an infraction, you could not call a legal defense. Uh, you were presented before a military tribunal or a judge, and they would hand down a sentence toward you. So it was kind of this egalitarian suffering from the rest of the population who were not interned. So it was, you know, again, that kind of scrutiny um to the Japanese population that would be applied, you know, kind of this perception potentially of, well, because of you folks, we are now under military law. We are now under military control. Um, prices are regulated, um, even essentially um changing jobs had to be approved by military officials because we had such a labor shortage.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

So that's very interesting. You literally could not change your job. Uh so speaking of jobs, let's say, uh, what was the experience of those who were Japanese ethnically serving in the armed forces of the United States? So, if you were a soldier, a marine, a sailor, what happened to them after Pearl Harbor?

SPEAKER_01 29:37

So, Pearl Harbor, um, we see, of course, um very famously we hear stories about uh young college students who essentially uh were part of the territorial guard, were part of the ROTC, um immediately kind of enlisting to kind of demonstrate and prove their loyalty. Um we also have, you know, literally uh one of the most successful recruit drives of essentially local Japanese young men, second generation, who would join voluntarily uh to the US military and serving in various capacities. Um again, you know, we in Hawaii are very sensitive to the awareness that it's a very kind of different circumstance. Um, that while families both in Hawaii and the mainland experience incarceration, um, it wasn't this widespread community event. Um, but still those who were not incarcerated, their families were very sensitive and aware that this was their time to kind of prove the loyalty, their sons, but not to kind of the same um, I think, community pressure um when you have your entire community, entire family uh being incarcerated. I don't want to minimize that and say, well, you know, it was a lot easier or or more difficult, whatever you want to describe it as, but saying that um I think there's a kind of awareness of the male and incarceration experience, the awareness that the Pearl Harbor attack happened literally miles away from where they lived, and this inherent need of the second generation to make good on the lessons of Americanization that they had been taught in the various schools here in Hawaii, English standard schools, to demonstrate their loyalty.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

Of course, there were some were they actually allowed to enlist? Because famously on the West Coast, they would be turned away when they showed up at recruitment centers.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

Yeah, not initially. And then, of course, we would literally see this kind of shifting or changing um with kind of um testimony to demonstrate or prove the loyalty of the Japanese. Also, of course, um we have uh the recognition by the US military, especially uh the Army and the Navy, of the usefulness of utilizing Japanese linguists to help translate. Um, especially, of course, think about the war in the Pacific. Um that kind of awareness that the Japanese culture, at least familiarity, of these young men had military usage or benefits. So we do see both West Coast and Hawaii Japanese uh being utilized in the military intelligence service. So while the majority of, of course, um enlisted men would be serving in Europe, uh, we do see a large number also serving in the Pacific, but as translators, as essentially um foot soldiers literally accompanying American soldiers to war. And you hear about these men who said, you know, when we thought about it, uh we were in most danger because we would be shot at from the front from the Japanese soldiers who recognized that we're not Japanese, and we could be potentially shot by our American fellow soldiers who couldn't discern the difference.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

So the Japanese could say, no, you're not one of us and shoot you. But the recognition that, you know, our fellow Americans may not be able to distinguish ourselves. So, you know, you hear these, again, this is kind of Gallo's humor, these stories from these young men who said, you know, I immediately latched on to the most American, Caucasian, African-American guy that you could who could vouch for my loyalty, so I would not be shot from behind. Since we were facing bullets from the front and behind, but we were necessary. But we also knew that we were in danger, every single part of um our service during the occupation. And again, think about the fact that um many of them did not have the linguistic ability, so they would be undergoing very rigorous uh language training. It was not intuitive, it was not natural. Ironically, by either people who had kind of this kind of cultural ties of familiarity, you know, some Japanese, Japanese American instructors, or um the sons of missionaries or diplomats who had in fact lived in Japan and were teaching Caucasian people that taught the Japanese, you know, the language that you know they themselves were not necessarily as familiar with because maybe they could speak Japanese, they definitely had more difficulty writing or translating, especially the kind of stylized um, they call it sho show writing system that uh imperial officers or the imperial family actually utilize. It's very it looks like beautiful calligraphy, but unintelligible uh to the common eye. You'd be like, what is that character?

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Like you'd never seen cursive or something, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:44

You'd never seen cursive. Um, even so today, you know, um I was talking to my daughters, and she's in fourth grade, her teacher said, Well, how come you guys are learning cursive anymore? And says, Well, we realize kids in the older grades could not read Shakespeare because they couldn't so I mean just think of that parallel, and you think, oh, cursive is obsolete, you know, I just fine motor skills are not as necessary. Literally, older students could not and still could not read English, so think of that parallel with the Japanese and very highly stylized calligraphy during the war.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

Oh, that's very interesting. Uh, so one thing that was very one force that was very impactful in the experience with the West Coast Japanese was this organization called the JACL. And I know they were founded and grew up in the West Coast. Did they have a presence in Hawaii or what influence did they have?

SPEAKER_01 35:37

So this is where um a lot of people kind of blur the history or not really quite certain. The JACL did not have a presence in Hawaii um prior to and during the war. I mean, well, I mean, they did have some peripheral experience, but you know, we really don't see kind of the established presence of the JACL during the war. So while we do hear about um uh this kind of very contentious relationship that the Japanese American Citizen League members would have in the incarceration centers, um, this push for Americanization, that did not necessarily exist as far as JACL members trying to encourage Americanization. Um, that was already kind of part of the post-Pearl Harbor environment of Hawaii.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

Um, that mentality of we're going to prove our loyalty, we're gonna make it a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

We're gonna prove our loyalty. So it's kind of by default that you hear about school children um literally pulling money together to buy bombs for Tokyo. This was the headlines of the newspaper. Um literally, some of their school time activities would be digging foxholes and trenches just in case just in case of another. We do see photographs of this in local schools of, you know, just and I think that'd be great exercise for children right now, of course, totally illegal, but just digging trenches in the school for the potentiality of another attack. Um, and again, another gallows humor. I said, you know, when COVID broke out and people were marrying wearing masks, I said, you know, that should not be uncommon for Hawaii people because during World War II, adults and children were mandated to carry gas masks with them. Again, a kind of a gallows humor parallel, but you see how daily life would be transformed and kind of the visceral understanding that we are mobilizing for this war effort, we need to demonstrate our loyalty. The incarceration of these very prominent individuals is serves as a clear warning for all of us. So we have to do what is necessary.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

So tell me about the experience of those who were incarcerated. So, first off, there's the first wave of arrests.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

Uh, was that added to So again, this is another kind of critical distinction where you know when the mass incarceration of Japanese Americans occurred beginning in February of 1942 on the mainland, um, it was this kind of widespread community event, right? It was just one fell swoop, right? Here in Hawaii, it's it was very different. That people could be immediately arrested and then let go and then re-arrested again or re-questioned again. Um people could be later arrested for as information came forth. So incarceration could occur throughout the entire duration of the war. So we see some people um, you know, being incarcerated for four years, other people for two years, other people who were released and then were re-questioned again by military officials, people who were arrested but then suffered from mental illness, um, were then sent to the state mental hospital. I mean, you hear these kind of weird um exceptions that would be made. So you could still be incarcerated throughout the entire duration of the war. And for example, especially during the first wave, as it were, of um incarceration, uh, for example, on the neighbor islands, these people were literally put in the same jail as rapists and murderers and thieves and robbers. I mean, literally, I mean, they were criminalized without any just cause. And these jails were often right in the middle of town. So people saw them. It was a very visible threat.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

True, on the mainland, they'd be sent to the middle of Wyoming from California, but Hawaii, not possible.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

Not possible. I mean, it just, these are such close-knit plantation communities. So, for example, on Lanai, which is one of the smallest islands, even so today it's a it's now a predominantly private island owned by one particular individual, um, literally the entire town is situated on a rectangle called Dole Park, you know, Dole Food Company. And you can literally see, okay, here's the market, here's the Buddhist temple, here are the schools, here's the library, and here's the local jail right on the corner. And so when you went to go grocery shopping, or you went to the schools, or you went to church, you could visually see the impact of military rule in your own community. These people were literally incarcerated in this little small structure at the corner of this little town square, um, and that in plain sight of everyone. So some people have argued the mass incarceration of individuals wasn't necessary when you have that clear awareness visually demonstrated to you by military officials in your own communities. It was not an event that was just removed, it was oftentimes inside the communities themselves, especially on the neighbor islands.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

That is very interesting. So, one theme that we talk about for the experience of the West Coast Japanese incarceration is those who chose to resist because they were suffering from incredibly unconstitutional borders and circumstances. In Hawaii, I imagine the feeling would have been very different. Is there any sense of the community having those that felt like this martial law is unjust? Did any kind of resistance? What was the relationship between the populace and the military as the war went on?

SPEAKER_01 41:17

So, this is where, again, kind of circling back um to kind of that original question you had of about who was intern, um, some of the first protests against this kind of injust incarceration were actually filed by um German immigrants, um, Glockner and Seifert, um, who literally literally kind of just legally protested against this. Um, what we see in the response of the Japanese community here, as reported by inmate families, uh, is public shaming. That literally they would report, yes, that you know, when my father was incarcerated, or my uncle or my relative was incarcerated, the neighbors would have nothing to do with us. You know, the neighborhood kids would be told not to play with us. They didn't want to have that same kind of suspicion, yeah, being cast upon them. And so many of them um, you know, reported this kind of public shunning. Um are still very kind of bitter about their experiences during the war, about how they were treated. And so um, you know, I was just talking to this under individual about you know the homecoming that these inmates received. It was very different. So when the military veterans returned, um beginning you know, 1945 and on, um, you know, huge parades would be held, um, public ceremonies, celebrations, public banquets. Uh, when these inmates arrived, yes, families would be greeting them, but not to the same fanfare, not to the same kind of public welcoming that these Nisei veterans actually experience. So you see kind of this divide in the Japanese experience that is, at least in the islands, that is kind of very unique, where, you know, because not everyone suffered the same egregious fate of incarceration, you know, we see this kind of role reversal of the second generation really rising to ascendancy and the retiring of the first generation, the Issei population. And so you really see kind of this transition and highly Americanization that would occur in the community. Um, I think sometimes very unique or distinct from the male incarceration experience, where some people clearly benefited from their wartime experiences. Um, they took advantage of the GI Bill, they took advantage of their wartime experiences and the connections that they made to become the leaders of banking, of essentially of business, of you know, medicine and law, and they would rise to ascendancy. We see this kind of this other part, um, who never kind of reclaimed the same kind of social status as if you were that they enjoyed in the pre-war period.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

That is very interesting. So martial law is instituted. Did that continue all the way through the war? Did that change over time?

SPEAKER_01 44:17

So martial law would ultimately end uh 1944, 1945, um, and we see essentially a relaxing of regulations. Um, you know, when we see, of course, the returning of veterans, um, they would of course have to arrive from parts of the Pacific as well as Europe. Um, we also see, you know, months later um these inmates arriving again on different ships. You know, we're trying to put together kind of this chronology. It wasn't everyone gets released and you know, you're all immediately brought back.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

Um I'm sure you also are you saying inmates from the mainland were being taken to Hawaii, or which inmates are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01 44:54

So, great question. So, inmates, some of them stayed on Oahu at the main kind of incarceration site, which would be Hon Uli Uli. Um, others would, of course, be sent actually to multiple incarceration centers. Um, so the challenge with kind of tracing the family histories of Hawaii inmates is that you'll see them shipped to multiple incarceration centers, and their families would be united, their families would be here, but they would be here, they would be reunited at that camp, they would be moved to this one. So there's kind of this movement, which I think is also kind of very interesting. So it also took them a little longer, I think, to make their way back to Hawaii. In fact, if they were going to return to Hawaii, um, not just, of course, from the interior of the United States, make it to the West Coast, but also crossing literally an ocean. So, you know, some did stay, some repatriated back to Japan. Um, but you know, you'd see this kind of these trickling in of inmates returning back to their home communities because they would have often stop on Oahu and then go to their neighbor island if they in fact were from the other outlying islands.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

Sure. Okay, that's interesting. What is the relationship that you're aware of in the pre-war all the way through directly post-war period? How culturally similar or distinct were Japanese Hawaiians from mainland Japanese Americans?

SPEAKER_01 46:22

So I said, you know, this is something kind of very interesting when we talk about Japanese Americans in Hawaii. Um, many of us do not refer to ourselves as Asian Americans. We say, oh, so what are you? Which of course is a very sensitive, hot.

SPEAKER_00 46:38

Very rude to say.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

Very rude to say. But you know, people just casually say so. So what are you? You know, kind of thing. And you know, because we have such a cultural mixing, it's a very kind of acceptable um question to ask people that you have some acquaintance or some familiarity. So what are you? Where are you from? kind of thing. And looking at um the understanding of the experiences of Japanese Americans to the mainlanders, um, I think you know, Hawaii has the benefit of being a very protected population, meaning that because we've constituted, we as Japanese Americans have constituted the majority in the pre-war and immediately after the pre-post-war period, um, we have this kind of protection, that we have this, we call it privilege to be perfectly honest, being part of the majority population. And even till today, as the numbers of Japanese Americans have declined, you know, we still recognize that we occupy a position of privilege and status that traditionally is not afforded uh to minority groups, to be perfectly honest. You know, Hawaii is a very protected place. I said, you know, how many places could you reasonably expect at a fine dandy restaurant to say, could I have a chopsticks to eat my salad with? Of course, we offer that, you know. Um I just went to a very fancy mainland chain. I can't say it here without promoting things, but it's like, yeah, you know, the waiter asks, Would you like chopsticks with that? Yes. Instead of saying, Would you like soy sauce? And of course, that would be unheard of asking, would you like shoyu? Just at any restaurant, they should they would offer it, right? So, you know, in talking about kind of the differences between um Hawaii Japanese and mainland Japanese, we're talking about kind of a privilege I think that Japanese Americans in Hawaii have enjoyed in part because of the wartime experiences and sacrifice of the Nisi generation, which I absolutely respect and acknowledge. Okay. Um, and you're right, you know, we do not have J towns, we do not have Japan towns, we do not have these ethnic enclaves because you know, we're so intermixed and so part of the culture that it's ubiquitous. Japanese culture is everywhere. You know, you can hear different languages, you can see menus. Um, so in talking about you know the differences or distinctness, I'd said, you know, um Japanese Americans, Asian Americans in Hawaii um are afforded this kind of privilege and kind of protection that I think still today um many Asian American groups um in certain areas do not experience or feel very safe about. Uh so for example, my daughter um went to kindergarten during COVID and she had two families. It was it was terrible. We never met her teacher until like two years later. There were two there were two families from New York. Um, one was a Korean American family, um, and another was another Asian American family, and I said, What are you doing here? Do you have any ties here? And they said, Well, and this is the wife speech. She said, You know, I lived in New York, I'm an East Coast girl. But when I saw in the news um an Asian American woman during COVID being pushed in front of a train because they blamed Asian American Asians, you know, that blurring of Asians and Asian Americans for COVID, I did not feel safe. So I moved to a place literally across the continent, across island, no family connections, where I felt I could have that kind of security for me and my family. And that's that's something I think is a very honest truth for Asian Americans. Um, there are certain places that are more welcoming than others. Um, and I said, Hawaii, we we experience that kind of privilege of that kind of safety and and ubiquitousness of our kind of cultures. Um, what's also unique, I think, about our communities is that we have such a high level of intermarriage and intermixing. So um I shared with you earlier, I said, you know, I think we're the only full Japanese side of my family. We've pretty much intermarried with everyone. You know, we have aunties and uncles and everyone from different groups, and it's it's just part of and it's welcome and it's celebrated as part of our kind of multi-ethnic mix.

SPEAKER_00 50:59

Yeah, so I guess what you've just said is a great transition into in the post-war period, how did the Japanese populace of Hawaii relate to the wartime experience, both the incarceration on the islands and also on the mainland, and how did that get talked about in the community?

SPEAKER_01 51:16

So, because relatively speaking, so few numbers, um, you know, some people have estimated um approximately 2,000 people of Japanese descent have been incarcerated out of you know over 100,000. Um, we're talking about a minority within a population that experienced something so historically, you know, devastating in some families, so historically important. Um, so while the mainland incarceration experience is very wide known in mainland communities here in Hawaii, um it's still a process of education. How can we share this story? Why is this story so important? And because we've intermarried and intermixed with so many different groups, it is a story that extends beyond a solely Japanese American identity or Japanese American community. You know, we see you know multiple peoples who don't necessarily have a Japanese name or look Japanese, um, but say, you know, that was my grandmother's experience or my grandfather's experience. So it extends this is a story I think is important because it extends beyond the immediate Japanese American community. And it is a story that talks about wartime fears, even in a place that reputably is a place of you know openness and awareness and racial harmony, as we like to think it of Hawaii as. Um, and this is where I I really appreciate you know you folks kind of sharing this story, I said, because it's not just a Japanese-American story, it's a story that impacts multiple communities, uh, whether you have some kind of familial or or friendship or some kind of connection uh to the story. Um again, we talk about Germans and Italians who are also incarcerated here in Hawaii. It's a German-American and German-Italian story. Um, it's also a story about wartime fears and um the fears of immigrants and wartime hysteria and military necessity to justify the infringement of civil liberties.

SPEAKER_00 53:21

One thing that we heard about in previous episodes was uh Congress passed an act which allowed people to voluntarily renounce their citizenship, presumably so that they would then be extricated from the US populace and sent back to Japan upon the close of the war. Did that have any impact on Hawaii that you're aware of?

SPEAKER_01 53:39

So this is where um, again, kind of this there's this wonderful kind of closed loop to this whole conversation. You know, when we talked about where do these Japanese immigrants come from, uh, we talked about the southern areas of Japan. Um, and we're talking about two areas in particular that experience American military technology. We're talking about Hiroshima and Japan. Um I'm fourth generation, and my family is from Hiroshima, Japan. And when you're talking about this decision to repatriate, of course, most major metropolitan cities were absolutely devastated because of the war. So, for example, Tokyo was just firebombed uh down to its foundation, to be perfectly honest. Um but when you're also talking about the impact of you know the decision to repatriate, you know, again, wartime news was very censored to arrive back to cities that had been atomically bombed and decimated from these immigrants who came from these southern regions, like as I mentioned, Fukuoka, Wakayama, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. Um that kind of experience would they be kind of duly traumatized by the experience by military officials and by American military technology. Um, we do hear stories about that too. That, you know, we thought we were going to return back to our homeland, we'd be safe, we'd, you know, be able to rebuild our lives, and literally our towns, our home country had been destroyed. Um, so I say to people, I said, you know, when you go to Hiroshima, it's not like a great modern city like Tokyo. It's not modern and new and you know, and it's not a historical city like Kyoto, which was deliberately not bombed, um, because the American military realized that that was the cultural capital of Japan and that would really enrage the Japanese. Um, Hiroshima is a city that literally has been rebuilt since 1950. It's a 1950s city. Um, so it has 1950s architecture. Yes, it is being modernized and things like that, but when you look at the effects of the atomic bombs in some areas, 90% devastation of the infrastructure and facilities. Um, we're talking about a city that literally was rebuilt from ashes. And they should speak to audience members who understood the impact of the California fires or the wildfires throughout the West Coast, where when fire fires sweep through, it's not just destroying houses, but the infrastructure, the water, the sewage, electricity, the internet lines now. It takes generations to rebuild.

SPEAKER_00 56:15

Yes. Are you aware of any, uh, this might be hard to say, but any kinds of numbers of those that were residents of Hawaii during the war that after the war did try to go back to Japan?

SPEAKER_01 56:26

I don't know the exact numbers. Um, we also hear stories, and this is where the Hawaii experience is so interesting, um, and also the Milan story, where people returned back to Japan, realized it was so much worse, and then tried to return back to America. Again, the most infamous example of um the unsuccessful efforts until relatively recently of an effort to return back to America after living in Japan was Tokyo Rose. Um basically, this woman uh who was stuck in Japan and tried to return back to America. Um and basically because of her alleged, you know, participation in Japanese propaganda um was never allowed to until you know after decades, if anything, later, to even be considered um to become an American citizen again, but again, never was.

SPEAKER_00 57:22

I hadn't heard the end of her story, that's very sad.

unknown 57:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 57:25

Right. I mean so you know, think about you know the the close ties, and this is where again I'm so appreciative of this opportunity to share this uniqueness of the Hawaii story. Um, but it's not just a Hawaii story, it's a story that also has connections with the Mailan experience, with the Japanese and Japan experience. Um, I had, as I also shared with you, um, both sides of the families that experienced it. I had family members in Japan during the war, and I had family members who fought on the side of Americans. So we had that kind of dichotomy that also exists in many Hawaii families where you see because of these, again closing the loop with this whole conversation, because of these close connections that existed in the pre-war community, it is not unfathomable to think that you know you would have family with these kinds of due loyalties that didn't necessarily necessarily translate into you know strict political allegiance, but you had kind of these very dichotomous fates that would really impact future generations, um, even still today.

SPEAKER_00 58:32

Yeah. So moving into now the 70s, the mid-70s, the political movement for redress and reparations is starting in Washington and is being driven by folks from Hawaii because now they're serving in the Senate and the House of Representatives. But what was the feeling in Hawaii from any stories that you're aware of toward the redress movement that was going on on the mainland?

SPEAKER_01 58:53

So the redress movement is definitely some areas that absolutely needs um more scholarship. We have a great um individual here. His name is Bill Kineco, who's done a documentary and his research essentially the and you know, the incarceration and restitution process. Um he was uh a JACL official, um also an attorney who fought um for these individuals to receive restitution. Um the challenge with the Hawaii story is that it's so complicated, you know, because fewer numbers, you know, Hawaii is often overlooked in the restitution process, and the various claims, in fact, um that people filed for restitution, those who had been interned. Those whose properties, homes, farms, businesses, their lands had been confiscated by military officials because of so-called military necessity, because of its proximity to military bases. Some of them also uh requested restitution. I mean, literally, um December 7th happened, 1941, and armed guards would force them out of their house, force them off of their properties, never to be reclaimed ever again. They were declared military property around that point on. So the restitution process is a little bit more complicated here because of those who had land claims, um, those who had, of course, experienced incarceration, uh, those who had business claims, uh, they had to prove residency or business ownership or land ownership at that time. Um, something that added an additional wrinkle. You couldn't just say I was incarcerated, I am, of course, I qualify. Well, what about, and you have all these other kinds of unique circumstances.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:40

So it sounds like you're talking about restitution being in the 50s when they would start to file claims, and that extended on into the 70s, unfortunately. But yeah, I guess so. Separate from that, in 1988, when the uh Civil Liberties Act of 1988 was signed, and there was a presidential apology, and you could apply if you were affected by the incarceration for the $20,000. Uh, how did that impact Hawaii?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:03

So the word coming into the both of what I was talking about, both you know, the early part as well as later. Um, again, it was so interesting that again you did see um this unique kind of experience where Hawaii politicians like Danny Noy, Spark Matsunaga, among others, um, who had pushed and had spearheaded uh restitution efforts, um, they're from Hawaii, um, because of the ascendancy and rise of these Nisei veterans. I mean, both of them were veterans who served uh for the armed forces, um, and they would be spearheading this effort that would impact um, relatively speaking, a smaller number of Hawaii residents, but was as equally as valuable. And again, still today you hear about um not just people who successfully applied for restitution, but those who were denied. Um, and that's again another story. Yeah, people were denied. They said you could not prove land ownership, you could not prove egregious loss because you know you were forced out of your homes.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:04

Um I'm sorry, I probably misunderstood you earlier then. So you're saying that those who were able to apply in 1988 and then the following years in Hawaii was not just those who'd been incarcerated, but also those who had a significant loss of some kind.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:18

That is correct.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:19

Okay, that makes so much more sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:21

Yeah. So it's a it's a more kind of complicated story, I think, than um what a lot of people give credence to. So, yes, of course, um the mainland incarceration and restitution process um is something that absolutely needs to be told. And again, the complications that come out with the Hawaii story is is adds nuance to it. It shows kind of the human dimension, it highlights um essentially sometimes the impact of personalities and circumstances unforeseen upon people's lives. And you know, the restitution process isn't automatic for those who were incarcerated. I mean, some people were so shamed by their experience that they never really wanted to talk about it and they never wanted to pursue it. There wasn't this kind of community-wide awareness and push as we see in the Mayland Incarceration Center, where the entire community suffered.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:16

Yeah. All right, so final question, or one of my final questions, I'll say how is the Japanese community within Hawaii relating to this history today? Is it commonly known? Are the reverberations felt and are they aware of them?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:30

So um, this is where I share with all of my audiences. You know, I said I look around and I see kind of older generations who are at my presentation, which I'm absolutely grateful for. Um, what I do not see are too many of my peers, um, fellow scholars who also want to investigate, um, highlight, share, um, delve into the nuances of this story. And this is where you know the story continues needs to be told. And um, I also, by the way, write for Densho, um, which is um a you know a digital resource of Japanese American history. And right after um some kind of common historical events that I will not, contemporary historical events that will I will not go into, I got so many calls from newspapers, the New York Times, Washington Post asking, so can you tell me more about this alien um Asian of these alien acts that were used to deport individuals? I said, why yes I can. I said, because there are historical parallels to what had existed during World War II and the efforts to deport um alien immigrants from our country back to their home country that occurred decades before. So I, you know, I got contacted by Dentho to say, my goodness, we're getting so many hits on this one short article talking about this Enemy Aliens Act. You know, this obscure kind of legal term. But because there are such contemporary resonance to events going on right now of deportation of certain individuals based upon the fear of their race, um, it's unfortunately a contemporary event even still today. And it's sadly uh, I think, um, horrifying to hear that this one short article about the Enemy Aliens Act is the most popular clicked on, you know, article right now. They do track it, right? They you know, they look at what people are looking at and you know what people are interested in. And it's it's not again Japanese communities that are are looking at this, but essentially eyes upon in various communities looking at this and seeing kind of the or trying to understand the legal precedent for contemporary events right now. And that's where people are like, Well, does history matter? I said, I hope so. I hope people can see parallels and the usage of legislation that still is on our books to incarcerate certain individuals or deport them. I mean, this is where I say to people um if you look at Hawaii, um Hawaii has a very interesting uh legal history um that actually precedes all of this. So one of the most prominent Supreme Court cases that is often looked at within the Hawaii Japanese community is this case, I believe, 1920 or 1921, even 22, of Takao Ozawa versus the Supreme Court, where he argued as a first generation that he should be granted American citizenship based upon his assimilation, his acculturation as an American. So even if he's Japanese, he and as early as 1920s is filing essentially with the United States Supreme Court efforts to grant citizenship to aliens. So we see, you know, already Hawaii being kind of the linchpin as far as as early as 1920s, efforts to grant citizenship to enemy aliens. And and so, you know, when Koramatsu comes along, I said, of course it's Hawaii that has to do this, because Hawaii has a very interesting Supreme Court history where these cases that are often based upon race make it that far to the Supreme Court. So you're right, with Koramatsu and things like that, it you know, we understand that as saying, okay, it's it's again kind of our contentious legal history that we have. Um, I'm sure as part of your podcast you talked about, you know, Thule Lake and the resistors there. And some of the most um dynamic, prominent, outspoken resistors were Hawaii people. People say, well, what about these Hawaii people? I said, by this point, some of the most vocal and uh dangerous, according to military officials, um, of these resistors to military authority in the incarceration centers were Hawaii people. So think about that they had been often moved from one camp to the next, from the neighbor island to Oahu, then shipped off to the West Coast and to this other camp. And in this camp, they get their identity as a traitor, as troublemakers, they get sent to Thule Lake, and all heck breaks loose at that particular point. So Hawaii is known for this kind of rambunctious kind of legal history. Um you know, um, I mean, I just I'm I'm trying to keep it clean here. Um, but when you look at essentially the legal challenges, the protests leveled by Hawaii residents, it's never quiet. You know, Japanese have this perception or they're often perceived as you know very quiet, subservient, and they said yes. Um when you look at, of course, legal challenges and how Japanese resisted. So, because, for example, that the Japanese in Hawaii incarceration centers were in, you know, basically under military law, you know, one chapter I talk about how do you make booze in prison?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:06

You know, how do you how do you know that's a good question? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:10

I mean, how do you make booze in prison? Well, you have your female relatives come and visit you on visiting day, because of course you have female relatives who are free, and what you have them do is first of all, put yeast in their undergarments, yeast packets, because you need right, you need yeast to make and you swipe fruit juice or fruits from your lunch or your dinner, and you save them. So you have them pack yeast in their undergarments, and then you have them bring big vases of flowers to say, I want this to brighten up your living accommodations. You throw away the flowers and you use these vases, these glass vases, to ferment juice, and you put sugar that you save from your coffee from the morning, right? I mean, you think about that, you know, again, this is prison culture here, to be perfectly honest. And so you say, Well, how do you you know the questions that arise that you know, what do you do with all your time? And I say, Well, one section talks about how do you make booze in the camps in a very kind of prison-like setting. I say, Well, this is what you do. You get yeast packets and you have them go visit the bathroom afterwards, give you a hug, you exchange things, um, you ask for big faces of flowers. So I think that is so ingenious. I mean, but that's that's Hawai people, that's plantation. We're not talking about, you know, very high culture. How do you make booze? I want to have booze in prison.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:47

So maybe there's a weird transition. But into our final question of the interview: what is your hope that our listeners will take away from these experiences, these stories, and this history that you've shared with me today?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:58

So I honestly, and this is what always been asked for me, and I said, you know, I hope people realize that history unfortunately has contemporary resonance or contemporary meaning. And this is where history is never dead. Um, history is again something, and you've heard this, we've all heard this before, that we learn about and we learn from. Um, we hope to grow from our experiences. Um, that has yet to be seen in circum certain circumstances. But, you know, a lot of people think, well, that's in the past, that's what happened. Um and you know, that applied to that particular group. That doesn't apply to me. Again, thinking about the fact that this one small article about the Enemy Aliens Act has gotten the most pings and and views and likes of any of what I've all have been writing for like the past 20 years is most humbling, but also it it highlights an awareness of the contemporary events that are going on right now. So I hope people, you know, listen to this, relate to this story on some level, and understand that you know they have a role and impact in history that has yet to be played out.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:09

Well, thank you so much for sharing your expertise, for writing your book, and for doing all that you've been doing to keep this history alive. Thank you again, Kelly Nakamura.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:18

Thank you very much, Spencer.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:21

Season one of History for the Reckoning is made possible by support from the JACL Mount Olympus chapter, as well as generous financial support from the Takahashi Family Foundation and the JA Community Foundation. The music was produced by Patrick Coffin. If you want to support the show, follow us on Instagram at History for the Reckoning. Sign up for our newsletter at History for the Reckoning on Substack, where you'll also find the show notes for each episode, or support us financially through Patreon at patreon.comslash history for the reckoning.