History for the Reckoning
A podcast that dives deep into uncomfortable history; the kinds of stories we need to learn so they’re never repeated.
Each season we'll dig into a history that we've misremembered, tried not to think hard about, or even tried to erase. Through interviews with historians, scholars, artists, and people who lived the history firsthand, we'll learn with the depth each topic deserves.
Season 1: “American Concentration Camps: The Story of WWII Japanese Incarceration”, launches February 19th.
Sponsored by the JACL Mt Olympus Chapter, the Takahashi Family Foundation, and the JA Community Foundation.
History for the Reckoning
Ep13 - The Nisei Servicemembers with Stuart Hirai - 'They shortened the war by two years'
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Historian and Stuart Hirai tells us all about what the many Nisei who served in the American Armed Forces did and experienced during the war, even as many of their families back home were confined to the camps.
Follow us @HistoryForTheReckoning on Instagram to reach out to us with questions or comments.
This is History for the Reckoning, a podcast that dives deep into the history that's hard to hear but critical to understand. Season one, American Concentration Camps. The story of World War II Japanese Incarceration. Listeners, thank you for joining me for another episode of the podcast. I'm your host, Spencer Ford. Throughout this series, this season, we've been talking a lot about the experience of the Japanese, Japanese Americans during World War II. And that war is kind of essential to this story. That it was the backdrop, the context through which all of this hardship and all of this injustice occurred. But also wrapped up in it was the experience of those who chose to serve as Japanese Americans in the American Armed Forces. And we'd like to talk about their legacy and their experiences today. And helping me to talk about that is Stuart Hirai. Stuart Hirai is a historian for the Nisei and Nisei soldiers of World War II, a lecturer with the Bernard Osher Lifelong Learning Institute at Colorado State University, where he talks about the Japanese and Japanese American experience during and after World War II. He's working on a book right now about the Nisei in the Military Intelligence Service and the 100 and 442nd Regimental Combat Team. Finally, he's on the Board of Governors for the Go for Broke National Education Center, whose mission is to celebrate the Nisei that served in World War II. Stuart, thank you for joining me today.
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you, Spencer, for having me.
SPEAKER_02So let's start. First question uh the experience of those who were already in the military as Japanese Americans when Pearl Harbor happened, both in Hawaii and on the mainland, what happened to them?
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, there were about 5,000 Japanese Americans uh in the military uh prior to uh the attack on Pearl Harbor, and they were in regular army, they were uh primarily drafted, some some enlisted earlier. Um uh so uh that and then of course you had the 298th, 299th infantry regiments of the uh Hawaii uh Japanese Americans in Hawaii, and that uh those units were federalized in 1940, I believe, uh National Guard units. So uh and they went through a draft process so uh uh to get uh their numbers up. Yeah. The the only yeah, and then of course there were some uh Japanese Americans who were uh involved in the military, primarily what's now called the counterintelligence corps in Hawaii, and uh yeah, they were part of the military intelligence service, but they were uh uh sent to uh the Philippines to spy on the Japanese in May of 1941.
SPEAKER_02Oh, long before Pearl Harbor, we were already like this is our geopolitical enemy. Let's get people in there who speak Japanese.
SPEAKER_00And they were from Hawaii, uh, and then of course, with uh in November on November 1, 1941, uh there were I think 58 Japanese Americans and two Caucasians who were part of the first class of the military intelligence service at the Presidio in San Francisco. Oh, cool. So yeah, they they started just about a month before Pearl Harbor, and then you know they were earmarked to um be trained for a year, but that year got cut down to six months. What? And then that's that first class, most of them were deployed to the Pacific. Some were sent to uh Camp Savage uh because of the uh executive order 9066. They were all Japanese uh Americans were ordered inland, and that included the U.S. Army personnel.
SPEAKER_02Included reactive duty soldiers.
SPEAKER_00That's correct. Yeah. Yep.
SPEAKER_02So let's say uh also Hawaii, you mentioned National Guard. Uh, after Pearl Harbor happened, all these people who to their white colleagues look like the enemy, what was their experience right after Pearl Harbor and in the ensuing months?
SPEAKER_00Well, for the Hawaiians at Pearl Harbor, what was really fortunate in their case was that they had interfaced uh with the uh community, and that meant the uh local leaders, uh military, uh civilian, uh primarily the Federal Bureau of National of Investigation, the Army and Navy, uh local government. So they had a very good uh relationship uh with them um uh you know years before the attack on Pearl Harbor. So that really helped.
SPEAKER_02There's already trust there, you're saying.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, in building the trust and uh uh yeah, and also the the loyalty, but there was still some questions, you know, there's always going to be questions about that because you had Navy personnel right after the bombing of personnel, for example, uh Henry Knox coming into Hawaii and and uh saying that the the Japanese military couldn't do this alone, that this had to be a fifth column uh at work, which was uh proven false. And but it didn't keep uh him and others uh in perpetuating the myth that the uh Japanese, Japanese Americans were uh uh an enemy race.
SPEAKER_02Sure. So speaking of which, these ones who are already in the service, they've already been trained, issued guns, but for the U.S. military. So after Pearl Harbor, did they let them keep their guns if they had some rank? Were those ranks stripped? Were they allowed to even stay in the military?
SPEAKER_00Well, that was the rub. Uh the thing is, is that right after Pearl Harbor, uh the Nisse on the mainland and to some degree on in the islands, because until the reinforcements came from the mainland to Hawaii, it was up to the uh the National Guard to prevent a uh a land invasion. But once Pearl Harbor hit, then all the Japanese uh Americans were separated out. Uh the weapons were taken away. But before that happened, uh when the transport ships arrived in Hawaii, uh one of the stories I read about was a soldier on the transport ship looked down at the dock and he saw a Japanese American uh with uh uh you know a rifle, and he turned to his friend and he said, We're too late. Oh, sure. But you know, like I say, the uh they they held the line until uh they were told to turn in their weapons. And then of course you had the younger folks with the in the ROTC there at the University of Hawaii, and uh so they were patriotic as well. And uh uh they were uh sort of so to speak deactivated. They started uh tried to start up a victory varsity volunteers, the Triple V uh consisting of these ROTC students. And uh I think that only lasted about a month when the military decided well, we don't want that either. So, like I said, with these the two groups, groups, both the younger ones and the older uh soldiers who were already in the National Guard of the 298th, 299th, then you know it all became uh kind of a an issue where can we trust these people? And uh, but the good the good news was that most of the people in in power uh knew that they could be trusted, but there was still that little doubt, and primarily it came from the mainland.
SPEAKER_02So, yeah, why don't we move forward to how did this start to shift? How did that change? How did we end up with these future uh combat uh serving soldiers?
SPEAKER_00Well, the thing about it with the with the uh few thousand that on the mainland, their weapons were taken away, they were uh relegated to uh doing menial tasks, road work, you know, maintenance work, something that didn't involve handling uh a weapon. So uh, but but the thing is that the order came out to discharge these soldiers, and uh, but it was up to the individual commanding officers to make that call. Okay, so there were a lot of uh commanding officers who stood by their Japanese Americans because they knew them to be loyal. So they gave them an option. If you want to be discharged, uh you can. Uh if you want to stay in, I will support you. So fortunately, there were quite a few of these commanding officers that did that, but there were some soldiers who were discharged because they had commanding officers that didn't trust them, period. So they were discharged. But after a while, the military realized hey, we need these men.
SPEAKER_02So then they saw a factor of manpower, or was it they needed Japanese language experience? What was the turning the tide?
SPEAKER_00All the above. Okay, they needed the thing is is that uh they needed uh Japanese Americans who could speak you know Japanese. The thing is there weren't that many, uh, be honest with you. I the only ones who fit that uh job description would be the Kibei. Kibei were Nise who were born in the United States but went to Japan to study. But they had the latest uh information, the language, and some of them they'd know the culture, they might even know geography, yeah. And also the military, because some were of that age where they were uh kind of pseudo-military. I mean, at that time, all most of Japan was militaristic anyway. So when you woke up and went to bed, you were dealing with military type uh uh issues. And of course, with the schools, uh that for decades they were teaching uh students the you know the propaganda of the day, which was you know, we're we're a proud race, and you know, you you are a guy for the emperor.
SPEAKER_02Let's move forward to where they first start recruiting, particularly on the mainland, Japanese Americans to serve. Uh, how did that come about? We've talked before how the JACL, that was one of their big uh a thing that they desperately wanted was that Japanese Americans would serve. Uh, how instrumental was the JACL or was this military necessity? And uh how was it rolled out?
SPEAKER_00Well, Mike Masaoka, I think he was one of the uh he was a president of the the JCL uh at that time in San Francisco. And of course, during the war, they had to move the headquarters from Los Angeles to Salt Lake City. But uh during that time period, uh Mike Masaoka Mike Masaoka uh got a hold of the military and said, you know, this is something that Japanese Americans can do. And I think that's when I first heard about him volunteering this concept of a suicide battalion.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00And I don't know exactly how far that went. But uh, you know, I think a lot of the military were thinking, well, you know, we we that's not very good propaganda to to have. But uh anyhow, that's the one of the stories that I heard. But with the uh executive order 9066, it was, you know, it was really difficult to get uh uh Nisse uh to even volunteer um because of the camp situation and the decades of discrimination that the Japanese Americans in the mainland faced. I mean, it was uh uh it was pretty bad. And uh so no matter where you were at, especially along the poor Pacific coast states, uh they didn't get much, if any, of a break. Of course, there were some uh citizens that uh sided with the Japanese Americans.
SPEAKER_02So when the recruiting first started happening, had people already been forcibly removed and they were already within the concentration camps?
SPEAKER_00Yes, at that point in time, yeah, they they were in the camps.
SPEAKER_02So, as you point out, there was so much distrust of Japanese and Japanese Americans at this time. It's amazing that recruitment even happened. So, how did the government justify that? Oh, I know we've told you for years and years these people are untrustworthy, they're the fifth column, they're gonna kill us all, but now we need them to serve on our side. So, how would how would they turn public opinion or even not public, but like bureaucratic opinion in favor of recruiting these people?
SPEAKER_00Well, they reinstituted the draft.
SPEAKER_02Well, there you go.
SPEAKER_00United States military reinstituted the draft, and uh, so that's how uh a lot a lot of the uh Japanese Americans, but they did leave up leave a window before then for them still to enlist. And there were, I think, uh around 12 to 1,500 Japanese Americans from the camp who did uh volunteer to enlist, but they were expecting much more as far as numbers, but uh they couldn't get that numbers. But then in in Hawaii, um I've read stories where 10,000 Japanese Americans showed up, and uh so they changed the um allotment uh from Hawaii and the mainland. I think in Hawaii it was around 2,500. Uh in the United States on the mainland, it'd be you know a little more around 1,500 or so. So uh uh for the for the original 442nd, I think uh more than half were uh Hawaiians.
SPEAKER_02All right, so recruitment begins and even draft begins. Uh so where are these soldiers originally taken? Are they going to the same boot camps as their white counterparts, or where were they trained?
SPEAKER_00Well, most of them train at Camp Shelby, but uh there are other training camps like uh in Florida. Uh they're trained there. In fact, there's uh four or five others where the Japanese Americans were actually segregated in their training at these various various training camps. But the one of the larger ones was in Florida, and the name excuse me right now. But uh uh my dad was trained there um in Florida, but uh they were trained in in segregated uh battalions, they were not integrated, so even when they went through basic training, they were segregated.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so what interaction did they have with uh their fellow soldiers who were Caucasian? But at that point, all races with segregation still in force in the army. Yeah, what was the response of the rest of the military populace at wait, we're Jap Japanese are being recruited now?
SPEAKER_00Well, when the 298-299th made made uh main uh made the mainland in in uh on mid-June 1942, a week or so before the battle midway had just taken place and it was a disaster for the Japanese Imperial Navy. So when they made landfall, it was pretty certain there that there's no way that Japan could launch uh an invasion of America. But then again, you didn't hear about that because that's something they didn't want to advertise, the military that is. But uh when the uh 100th Infantry Battalion separate was officially activated when they reached the mainland, they were sent in three separate trains to Camp McCoy. Camp McCoy's in uh Wisconsin. Okay, the unit that was uh go undergoing training was the 2nd Infantry Division, and most of them, if not all of them, were from Texas. Okay, and uh immediately um Texans started to uh take pot shots, you know, verbal uh insults and whatnot. Of course, the Hawaii didn't particularly uh care to be called the J-word, right? And uh the Hawaiians would uh immediately um institute uh basic training on these poor Texans, and these Texans were taller, they were bigger, but uh um in one of the books I've read, the Japanese Americans of the 100th put 38 of these Texans in the hospital with broken arms and broken legs to one Japanese American who was hit on the head with a billy club by a military police who should have been hitting both sides, but he picked on the Japanese Americans and so 38 to 1 uh was the ratio.
SPEAKER_02That's insane. So what was so it was they were mixing, they were definitely like in the same mess hall or something.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, in fact, the fights were so bad that they were actually thinking about creating another post exchange. But uh Colonel Ferrand Miller, um uh current Ferrand Turner said, No way, you guys need to learn that these are Americans, you know, of Japanese descent, and they deserve wearing the uniform like anybody else. And so you treat them like equals, then they're gonna continue doing what they're gonna do. But Farrent Turner, you know, he was Hawaiian, uh, he was a Caucasian. Uh, so the men loved him and they loved his auxiliary officer too, who was also Caucasian. So, I mean, with that kind of support, you know, the the Japanese Americans uh had you know fared okay. But then again, they did feel bad about putting 38 Texans in the hospital because they were supposed to exercise more control and discipline. But uh, like I say, that that kind of uh uh insults took place. And it also took place before the Hawaiians even showed up. I'm like I said, right after Pearl Harbor, the few thousand Japanese Americans who were already in the military, they spent most of 1942 being insulted and uh you know attacked and beat up on in the forts, in the posts, the camps. So it wasn't uh a better roses for the mainlanders who were already in the military.
SPEAKER_02All right, so the recruitment and drafting of folks of these young men from the camps has happened. Uh, do they join up with the Hawaiians? Do they train together? How did the the full unit start to get formed?
SPEAKER_00Well, the uh the 100th, they underwent another series of training. Okay, uh they didn't meet up with the uh 442nd until I think when was that probably November or December of uh 43 that when they were sent to uh Camp Shelby.
SPEAKER_02That's in Mississippi, correct?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, oh yeah. Mississippi Hattiesburg, Mississippi. And uh what's interesting is that while the 100th was at uh Camp McCoy, they love Wisconsin, they didn't like the camp because of all the racism and discrimination going on, but they love the citizens of Wisconsin. Wisconsin, Wisconsinians were friendly, they invited them into their homes for meals, and uh yeah, it was a very friendly environment. But once they got down to uh uh Camp Shelby, it was it was in the it was in the south. Well over there, and that's when they ran into the uh the bathrooms, you know. I mean that's true.
SPEAKER_02So, from a legal standpoint, was a colored person also all East Asian descent and South Asian descent?
SPEAKER_00Well, that's what that was kind of confusing for the Japanese Americans because they weren't white and they weren't black, so there was a lot of questions about which one should we go to. Well, after a while it became pretty apparent, no, you're gonna go to the white restrooms. Um, so that's that's that solved that problem. But the Japanese Americans were really disheartened to see this kind of racism going on. Of course, it's been going on for you know a long, long, long time. And uh uh even with riding the bus, you know, the African Americans had to get in the back of the bus, and uh Japanese Americans didn't like that. In fact, there were some uh uh discussions with the bus drivers about that. And in fact, in one situation, I think one of the bus drivers was kicked off his own bus and Anise drove the bus. And he said, You can come and sit anywhere you want. But then again, like I said, uh uh you know, one group of people cannot change a whole culture.
SPEAKER_02So it is so interesting that these these young men from Hawaii had come from a very mixed culture that there was such a difference.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the only the only array I of life there was a guy by the name of Earl Finch. Uh, he was a businessman in Hattiesburg, and uh some Japanese Americans came into a store, and his mother, who was an invalid, was there, and these Japanese Americans kind of catered to her. And Earl was just he was dumbfounded by the kind of treatment that his mother was getting um by these Japanese Americans, and he liked it. He said, Man, these are wonderful people. So he he developed a friendship with these Japanese Americans that started with the 100th, but it also went to the 442nd. So uh yeah, uh Earl Finch was a a beam of bright light in at Hannesburg that the Nisei Japanese Americans really, really loved. They they loved him. In fact, I think he moved to Hawaii um after the war. But he was instrumental in a lot of social activities, uh, parties at his on his farm, and but he really took care of uh the Japanese Americans and did and the Japanese Americans in turn took good care of him. So with friendship, yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's really nice. So the story that I've heard is that uh higher ups realized there were two concentration camps over the border in Arkansas. So, how did that get arranged and tell us that story?
SPEAKER_00Up that point in time when the uh uh the Hawaiians, and I'll call them the Buddha heads in a in an affectionate way, uh, when the Buddha heads from Hawaii met with the katonks from the mainland, there was friction already because uh the uh the Buddha heads really thought that the katonks were uh kind of stuck up, uh uh rigid, not very friendly, uh, but they also had uh refined speech. You know, they they didn't speak pidgin, nor could they understand pidgin that the Hawaiians spoke. But uh it was just the attitude that the Buddha heads had uh with the katonks. But I think a lot of it had to do with uh the camp situation, because uh uh not very many of the uh uh Japanese Americans from Hawaii had members that had family members in the camp, not like it was in the mainland where you had over 120,000.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, your entire Japanese.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean the whole West Coast uh was uh vacated uh for you know from the military zones one and two. So uh, and then with the racism that was going on for decades before, uh, there was no not much of an incentive for uh uh katonk to uh you know really adhere to what was going on. Yeah. Well, uh when the uh the booty heads and the katonks got together, of course, there was a lot of fighting going on. And in fact, at one point, uh the cadre of the 442nd said, you know what, we may have to disband this unit because they fight amongst themselves more than than they would the enemy. But a chaplain came up with this idea that you know what, there's two concentration camps close by. If we get uh some busloads of Hawaiians to go, uh you know, maybe we can change the the thought process of these Hawaiians because you know, it I think they were at the last straw because they tried all kinds of uh of uh talk meetings, discussion groups, uh it just it just won't work. So the chaplain came up with the idea we need to send some to the uh one of the camps. And of course, once they got to the camps, it's like you know, this this party attitude with the ukulele's and whatnot, the laughter and jokes kind of got really quiet when they saw the compound of these camps with the barbed wire, the guard towers, the machine guns pointing inward. And uh, you know, they didn't particularly care for the security that they had to go through just to get into the the camp, you know, because the guards had to, you know, check them. Um, but uh, you know, the military, they still respected the rank. So if you were uh a master sergeant and a corporal comes up, then you know you gotta you know provide the right you know decorum to uh a senior ranking non-com. And so that was adhered to, but uh a lot of these uh uh uh camp guards didn't like that, you know. So but that's tough for them. But uh yeah, you but once they once the uh the Japanese Americans from Hawaii saw the conditions that they were under, you know, and then finding out that uh to have this party, the uh residents had to uh save up whatever supplies they had to have this party.
SPEAKER_02So it was uh the people in the camp that organized and put together the actual party for these soldiers.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they they had to make they had to come up with their own party items because it wasn't going to be provided for them. So uh they had to uh use their own rations, whatever, to make this make this party go on. And then I think most of the Hawaiians realized that you know they really have it bad. Because I think your typical Hawaiian really wasn't exposed to the large-scale incarceration that took place on the mainland and the decades and the decades of discrimination that the mainland Japanese Americans faced uh before Pearl Harbor. Of course, that's why they were the military was very careful in selecting uh the right kind of officers to lead this unit. And that's where uh Colonel Pence comes in. And you know, like I say, that from that that point on, you know, that uh Colonel Pence was responsible for picking officers who understood the Japanese Americans and uh picked officers who were not racist. Ones who were, they didn't last long. And the only yeah, and the the only uh uh non-japanese was a Korean by the name of Young Oak Kim. When the 100th came to uh uh United States, the mainland, I think uh uh dozens of the 100th were funneled off into to Camp Savage uh for uh MIS. So they started out with 1432 when they arrived on the mainland, and then by the time they were deployed to North Africa, they they were down to 1,300, which was equivalent to six rifle companies. So the 100th was actually an oversized rifle uh battalion when they went overseas with 1,300 soldiers.
SPEAKER_02But so it sounds like recruitment to the MIS came out of those who were already integrated into the armed forces.
SPEAKER_00It wasn't separate recruitment of civilians because after the the first class uh at the presidio, when they when they were they graduated and were sent to the Pacific, uh a dozen or so of those uh were transferred to Camp Savage to uh to teach uh subsequent classes, and of course, with the 100th having uh uh few dozen uh Japanese Americans who could speak Japanese, they became second class, actually, the first classes of Camp Savage to go.
SPEAKER_02But they were you look at the MIAIs land on the mainland, and someone goes around and goes, Hey, who's fluent in Japanese? Some people raise their hand like, Great, you're gone.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and yeah, they had to pass a test and then they had to go through the the training. Okay, but uh the military that's when the military realized that there weren't that many Japanese Americans who could actually speak Japanese, but the kibe, the kibe, they were the key. And uh it was really interesting because right after, well, I think in 1943, uh at Fort Riley, Kansas, uh, there were 500 Japanese Americans, both Kibai and Nisei. Uh, when they had a dignitary coming in who happened to be President Roosevelt, they they hurdled, they they uh lassoed these 500 uh Japanese Americans in a warehouse under armed guard. So a lot of the oh yeah, they couldn't be trusted, right? I mean, this these guys were, you know, after a couple years, you know, uh, you know, they said, if you restore my rights as a soldier, uh I will gladly fight. But the, you know, the way we're being treated, you know, especially with President Roosevelt coming in, they they round up the 500 at Fort Riley, put them in a warehouse under machine gun, and uh uh they had to have if they had to go to the bathroom, they were they they were let out with you know 10 at a time with with an officer with loaded 45.
SPEAKER_02So to be clear, even at this point in the war, they're already recruiting people where they're like, we are just afraid enough of these young men that we're gonna lock them up on the off chance that they might try to kill the president of the United States.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, it was worse than that. Trust wasn't there, yeah. Even though you had even though you had uh uh Japanese Americans from the uh uh 100th, you know, already there, and you had uh a few thousand Japanese Americans who were already in the military, uh, but they were you know relegated to menial tasks until the 442nd was formed up in February 1943. Then that's when uh most of the Japanese Americans uh went to uh uh Camp Shelby. But there just also need to mention that there were other Nisei who chose not to go into the 10442nd. Their commanding officer said, if you want, you could stay in in this division. And that's why you will see names of uh double single numbers of Japanese Americans in other units. They were actually integrated with with the entire division, but they were in small numbers. Yeah. So, you know, and but the but they had the support of their commanding officer. So if you if you had a commanding officer that stood by you, oh man, yeah, I mean, you know, he took on a huge responsibility. And think, thank heavens, there were a lot of these commanding officers that said, you know, I know you're loyal. In fact, my scoutmaster's brother, uh, he was at a at a post and uh he wanted to join the 442nd. And his commanding officer said, You know what? These guys are racking up horrendous casualties in Italy. You know, I personally don't want you to go, I want you to stay here under my command. And he chose to stay with that commanding officer.
SPEAKER_02Wow. So we're coming to where uh the 100th is gonna ship over to North Africa. At this point, was the military intelligence service already deployed in combat duty in the Pacific?
SPEAKER_00Yes, as I mentioned before, the first class at Christie Field, they were sent to the Pacific in May 1942. Okay, so they were in harm's way, but it took a while because wherever the Japanese Americans went, they had to get through this this bow wave of discrimination and distrust. So it took uh months before uh the combat units in the Pacific uh you know could actually trust the Japanese Americans. I mean, Japanese Americans, the MIS, they were frustrated. They were frustrated because they were seeing their own people dying, comrades in arms dying. They said, we can make a difference. And in fact, the uh commanding officer, commanding general of the American Division, uh Lieutenant uh General uh Alexander Patch, uh, he was the commander of at Guadalajanal. And initially he didn't want Japanese Americans MIS there, you know, because he had his own biases too. But after he saw what these Japanese American Americans could do, every time a load of Nisei would arrive by ship or by airplane, he would go to the docks or the airport to welcome them. So he learned to respect and actually love the Japanese Americans, not only in the Pacific, but when he became commanding officer of the uh of the 7th Army that went to the U.S.
SPEAKER_02So tell me what was it they could do? What what impressed this general?
SPEAKER_00Well, the they were able to uh uh interpret, interrogate, translate. It took a while before they got up to the front lines, but once they got up the front lines, then it was like a they could hear, they could hear commanding officers on the Japanese uh military talking, so they would be able to know where the Japanese were going to attack before they were going to attack.
SPEAKER_02Because the Japanese did not think those Americans could speak Japanese.
SPEAKER_00Well, they they the Japanese Americans were pretty sneaky, you know. I mean, if if they were captured, they they would have been tortured and executed. So these guys were smart cookies anyway. But most of these guys uh were paired up with Nisei. Most of the uh work came from the kibe. Kibai were the ones who took these chances to learn uh by sneaking up the front lines and hearing the Japanese officers talk and then relay it back uh by mouth to their commanding officers that this is where the attack's going to take place. So they would move where the attack was and bang, that they would counter that move. That they use those techniques, interrogation techniques that got used in the war in the Pacific. Because, you know, uh, if you give a Japanese uh a cigarette, food, water, take good care of them, they will spill their guts because they were not indoctrinated to give their name, rank, and serial number because their suit, their uh higher up well, their higher-up said, well, there's no need uh for this because they're gonna kill themselves anyway. They're gonna die in battle. So there's no indoctrination for these Japanese soldiers on giving their name, rank, and serial number. So the the technique was treat them with kindness, and it worked every time. The thing about it, too, is that with uh uh this kind of intel, uh, it was just it was spot on. It was uh timely. And uh so that's when uh the the uh plea from the Pacific was we need more of these interpreters and translators. So they in the meantime they were trying to get more Japanese American linguists uh into the MIS uh school, and uh so in fact it got so uh so uh large that they had to move from Camp Savage to uh uh uh Snelling, Fort Snelling in in Minnesota. So that's how large the demand was. But around 6,000 Japanese Americans served in the Pacific during the war.
SPEAKER_02Wow, that is much more than I expected. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's quite a bit, and they were attached to every combat unit in the Pacific, including our allies, you know, whether they were the Australians, New Zealanders, Dutch, French, Indians, Chinese, um none of those countries had Japanese linguists, and they had the bar. Well, and Canada. Well, Canada, with the interesting story about Canada, especially British Columbia, they had incarcerated their Japanese Canadians, just like they did in the United States. And they would not allow any Japanese Canadians to be in the military. It took the urging, and I say urging of Winston Churchill to convince British Columbia to get in the act, get their Japanese uh Canadians involved. But by the time they got trained up, it was nearing the end of the war. So, where did these allies get their linguists? They got them from the United States Army.
SPEAKER_02Crazy. So let's cross the world now. When the uh hundredth is shipped out from Mississippi, they end up in North Africa. Can you tell us about their time in North Africa?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right at that point, it was still, you know, their their issue was in doubt because uh the military wanted them to guard trains because the black market was thriving. Uh, and they thought that well, having the 100th do guard duty on the trains. But uh Colonel Turner said, Nope, these men, they want to get into the action. But I think one one cut one or two companies, the oversight companies, uh stayed back and did that. But the rest of the battalion, uh 1st Battalion, General Ryder, you know, he was uh you know willing to go along with the experiment. And uh, of course, he indoctrinated his own troops on what to say and what not to say. But like I said, with all the other Japanese Americans, whether they were on the mainland or uh or overseas, they weren't treated very well, especially the 34th. 34th Division soldiers didn't want them either. Thanks it wasn't it wasn't this picnic, but a few of the 34th soldiers came over. Of course, they saw these laid-back Hawaiians playing their ukulele's and barefoot and having a great time. Uh, they they actually earned, I think, uh, some some initial trust from the few of these soldiers who came over to uh visit with the Japanese Americans. And of course, after uh uh few battles, then that's when the most of the soldiers of the 34th realized that these guys are tough soldiers. And uh, and that's when uh General Ryder authorized the 100th to wear the 34th Division shoulder patch, the red bull. They loved it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that was uh in North Africa on on this guard.
SPEAKER_00Actually, it was it was uh right after Salerno because their first day of combat, they arrived in Salerno on the September 22nd, 1943. Okay, almost a year before the 442nd showed up. So their first day of combat was on September 29th. And by the time they reached um actually through each of the battles, uh crossing the Volturno River three times, uh you know, they earned their medal and uh and respect of uh the units that fought alongside the these Japanese Americans because one of the toughest positions to to defend is your flank. The divisions, the regiments, people get around you, it can be game over. That's right, and that's your weak spot. But they always had Japanese Americans, whether they were the 100th or 442nd, watching their flanks, because they knew a breakout would never occur when you had the the Nisei soldiers watching their flanks.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Okay, so at this point you said Salerno. So we've moved into Italy, they've crossed the Mediterranean and they're fighting the Nazis in the boot. Uh so uh and they're moving up, yeah.
SPEAKER_00They're moving upward. Uh by the time they of course during this time period, they get this uh uh this uh reputation of being a purple heart battalion. So when they when they landed at uh in North Africa, they had 1,300 soldiers, they had six rifle companies, like I said, they were oversized, but by the time uh they had reached uh the Abbey Monte Casino, they were down to 521 effectives, so 1300 down to 521 effectives. Also they needed well and they needed replacements. So, where did these replacements come from? They came from the first battalion of the 442nd regimental combat team that was still training at Camp Shelby.
SPEAKER_02Is that to say they pulled some some of these dudes early?
SPEAKER_00Well, the the the interesting thing about the 442nd is that they had soldiers who were 36-37 years old in the 442nd. So and that was maybe a few years older than some of the soldiers in the 100th, but the 100th, they were older anyway. Okay, they were what I like to consider the older brothers and uncles of the 442nd from Hawaii, so they were a little bit older, so it kind of fit.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so let me ask you now that they've landed in Italy, they're engaging or they're coming across the Italian locals, and they're also coming across captured Nazis. What was the response of these Europeans to these Japanese Americans?
SPEAKER_00Well, it's really interesting because uh there's always this thing about when they ran across the Italians, of course, by September 1943, Italy had surrendered to the Allies, except the Italian fascists. They were still fighting for Germany or fighting with Germany. And uh so, you know, you had all these Italians, it's kind of hard to tell who the enemy is, but like I said, most of the Italians uh in the military surrendered except for the fascists. They stayed with the Nazis. But uh, when the Italians would see these Asian-looking faces, they go, Are these Chinese? And then when they were told they were Japanese, they go, What? You know, they couldn't believe it. What's interesting is that when the uh 100th battalion was attached to the 1st Special Service Force at Mount Maho, just above Casino, before the Battle of Aby Mano Casino, they were attached to the force for a couple weeks. And when the forceman was bringing down German prisoners, uh, the Japanese Americans were on this hill, and when they marched these prisoners by them, these German prisoners were like looking at each other and they're speaking like, are these Chinese? And uh the forceman who was uh bringing these Germans off the hill said, No, haven't you heard? They're Japanese, they're on our side now. And you know, you talk about some you know propaganda there, some uh uh psyops going on. Oh, it just must have just torn up the Germans, but that's what they that's what they did. That was one of their main tactics they used to uh confuse the enemy.
SPEAKER_02So at what point did uh the main body of the 442nd end up in Italy with the 100th?
SPEAKER_00Most of them arrived uh after the fall of Rome, uh after June 4th. So uh, you know, they had to get acclimated and whatnot. Of course, when the brothers of the 100 and 442nd saw each other, a couple things happen. They either fought each other or they embraced each other. And the thing is, the ones who fought each other is usually an older brother and a younger brother, and the younger brother saying, You were supposed to stay home and take care of the family. Well, and now you're here. What happens if both of us get killed? So, you know, we had that stuff going on, but then with all the combat that the uh 100 went through, they were trying to impart their knowledge to their the younger 442. But there's you know some of this uh uh reluctance by not only the officers of the 442, but some of the soldiers of the 442 because they thought they knew it all too until that first day of. Combat on June 26th. And uh so like I say, that it was it was kind of a a wake-up call for the younger 442, but uh uh they realized how good the four the 100th infantry battalion was. And the 100th, they had kind of uh an air about them anyway. And and by listening to young old Kim's uh uh interviews, I get the sense that that arrogance came from him, and uh you know he knew what he was doing, and uh and he loved the Japanese Americans as much as they loved him, and uh he was called the the Yankee samurai. So, you know, he was one of them.
SPEAKER_02But so you said this was in June of 44?
SPEAKER_00Uh yes, yeah, June 26th.
SPEAKER_02D-Day has already happened or is about to happen.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, D-Day in Normandy took place on June 6th. The fall of Rome took place on June 4th, 5th. So the 442 showed up after uh and before the D-Day invasion in in Normandy, but uh uh after the fall of Rome.
SPEAKER_02So at this point, we've got uh the the Third Reich in a vice, where there's got the northern invasion through Normandy, the southern, which is our 442nd and 100 is part of, coming up from Italy, and then also the Soviets coming from the east. Uh so at this point, I wonder if you have any stories that you'd like to share of what how the military intelligence service is doing up to the middle of 1944. Any special stories from them?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the uh the MIS, they are doing a stellar job by this time. Uh they're they're already embedded in 140 combat units in the Pacific. They're attached to every uh uh ally that we have. Uh, there's even a contingent that goes to the uh part of the OSS and uh China Burma India theater with the OSS. So like I say, and Maryland's marauders, of course. But uh well, it's interesting because there's a uh master sergeant by the name of Kasuo Yamani. Uh he was uh assigned to uh the uh Pacific area uh military intelligence uh unit that was stationed in uh Camp Ritchie, Maryland. And uh he just got back from his honeymoon and he's ordered by his commanding officer to look at these uh this whole trunk that was found floating in the ocean in the Pacific. And the Navy had looked at it and they didn't see anything of value in it. So they shipped it. Yeah, yeah, just float bobbing up and down the ocean. The Navy retrieved it, they looked at it, so they had nothing of value here, and they shipped it to uh uh Maryland. And that's where the army had their uh their experts looking at these things because these were captured documents that could be used uh in the campaign. So when Yamani takes a look at this, the first book he looks at it's the inventory of ordnance in Japan. So it's like this is all of our guns and where they are, and and where they're stored and where they're made, including the ammunition. So about that same time, starting in November 44, that's when the Mariana Islands had failed. They fallen. They actually had B-29s that were flying, but they didn't have targets. But after Yamane had had discovered this treasure trove of information, that information was shipped to the Pacific and uh uh as for targets for the B-29s. And uh so that really helped a lot. But what the Navy, when they first looked at nothing of value, but when uh Master Sergeant uh Kazu Yamane looked at it, he goes, Hey, this is this is big stuff. Yeah, and that's where they were able to come up with their more of their strategic bombing. They didn't the Army Air Corps didn't start doing the uh their carpet bombing until a little bit later.
SPEAKER_02I guess those then speaking to what he did, if he was uh if they were choosing not to carpet bomb because of his intelligence from a military perspective, military is more effective, they're taking out where the munitions depots are and things like that. But also from just a civilian suffering perspective, there's less carpet bombing, there's less indiscriminate bombing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, and of course that's what they did eventually. You know, they they started doing the the carpet bombing because they were running out of targets, so they're trying to, yeah. And of course, with the military installations being embedded in these communities, it was kind of hard to, you know, we they didn't have the smart bombs that we have today, you know, to be surgical about how the bombs went. And plus, they wanted to bring the Japanese people to their knees, and that's when they had the insidiary bombs. And of course, in August 6th and 9th, then that's when they had the atomic bombs. Yeah, but this same character, Kasuo Yamani. Uh he and two other Nisse were ordered to go to France under uh the Allied headquarters under Eisenhower, and they were supposed to join a commando unit to go into Berlin before the Russians and capture uh Japanese documents because a radio intercept was intercepted by these Nisse that, hey, there's some there's some stuff there in Berlin in the Japanese embassy there. So the British commandos came up with this idea to uh go in there and find out what's going on. And so they wanted three Nisse, a high-ranking uh major uh of the MIS to go to Schiff headquarters in uh Versailles, France. And uh uh but that mission was canceled. But uh well, it's probably a good thing because the Russians were indiscriminate in what they shot at.
SPEAKER_01And who?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so but the story goes on where toward the end of the war, uh the actually the 522nd Food Artillery was actually attached to the 101st Airborne Division. And but with uh these three Nisei, they were at a hotel where the Japanese diplomats were staying. And General Maxwell Taylor, who had spent some time in Japan, uh was responsible for evicting these uh diplomats from this hotel. And these three need the two of the Nisei were directed to accompany these 33 diplomats back to United States, to New York, on an ocean liner. So that must have been pretty fun. But uh, you might follow later on. But it's one of these stories where we just found out recently that that in addition to the 522nd uh being attached to the 101st, uh toward the latter part of World War II, and then having these three MIS guys uh accompanying these uh Japanese diplomats back to uh New York was kind of interesting.
SPEAKER_02So we're back in Europe. So let's talk about now uh the Pincer movement is in action and our southern flank is moving further and further north toward Berlin. Uh so that means our guys are now into France. Can you tell us about the fighting there?
SPEAKER_00Okay. Well, just a little before that, the anti-tank company, the 442nd, they're detached from the 442 and they've become part of the first airborne task force. And they're attached to the 517th Parachute Infantry Regiment, part of Operation Dragoon, that takes place on August 15th. So these guys glide into Lemuis, France, in in in uh 44 glides. Oh, yeah. And they glide in.
SPEAKER_02To talk about what a glider is, that means they're towed behind the plane in a literal glider, like you're gliding in a kite, and then they just detach you and they're like, good luck, buddy, and you land.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's pretty much what it is. But they're they're detached, and then they're they're fighting their way in southern France, and then they meet up with the 442nd on October 24th, 1944. See, the Japanese Americans, they're still in Italy in August and September. Uh, so they get orders that they're gonna move out and go to France. So, you know, they aboard ships and they they finally get to uh uh just outside of Epinal, France, um uh October 13th, 14th, 44. Their first day of combat is October 15th, 1944, and their objective is to take the hills and eventually take Bouillere, France. So uh and and of course, by the time the uh sixth corps reaches the Vosges Mountains, you got the Third Army, uh the Third Infantry Division, you got the 36th and the 45th, they are spent. They've been fighting continuously since August 15th, and here it is, October. They're just tired, you know. And the mountains are impregnable. They lost their momentum, and the 10442nd, they're fairly uh fresh troops, yeah, and uh they're ready to go, they're ready to go for broke. And so, anyhow, uh they get up there and uh they're attached to the 36th Infantry Division commanded by Major General John Dahlquist. And Dahlquist tells his men, and he also tells the men of the 1442nd that there's no Germans here. You should be out, it should be a cakewalk. Well, then how do you explain all the casualties that his own forces take?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he's been here for months trying to fight the no Germans here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyhow, yeah, that's that's his story. And of course, the cadre, the 100th, uh they they you know, they visit other units, and they're told there's Germans all over here. And by the way, don't talk so loud. They're only a few yards away.
SPEAKER_02Jeez.
SPEAKER_00So, so at that point, young old Kim, one of my favorite officers, uh gets different kinds of intel, and he tells that to his commanding officer, uh Gordon Singles, and he tells that to Colonel Pence and Virgil Miller. And, you know, they're like shaking their heads, like, how can this be? We're being told by the commanding general that there aren't any Germans here, but after your recon, there the hills are filled with the Germans. Well, the Nise find out that, yeah, they're all over the place. It they rack up a whole bunch of casualties, just taking the surrounding hills and Bouvire. So, and then there's Bifontaine, uh, which is a useless uh objective, but Dahlquist orders the 100th to take Bifontain, and that's where young old Kim and a few other um officers, of course, young young old Kim, he gets wounded, and so he's taken out of action. In fact, he's taken out of the whole war with his wounds. Yeah, he's he's yeah, he's set in stateside, but uh a lot of other officers are killed, so they lose a lot of their senior officers, senior ranking non-coms, and uh that's why to this, you know, that's why young old Kim just really dislikes um uh Dunkist because he he put the men in situations where they shouldn't have been. And in fact, he's a Michael manager, and that gets more people killed.
SPEAKER_02So the big famous story we hear about the action in southern France of these Japanese American soldiers is about the lost battalion. So there's a big famous story that you have, I'm sure, told a thousand times, but I wonder if you'll share it again.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, the the battle uh was uh primarily because Dahlquist told his commanding officer, the 141st Infantry Regiment, that there aren't any Germans. I want you to go on those hills and go like heck. Well, when the uh uh Germans saw this uh uh this 1st battalion making headway, the Germans let them through because it was gonna be a perfect trap. And uh so so these men go forward.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so not the Nisei.
SPEAKER_00Not yet, not yet. This is like on the October 20, 21st or so. Uh that's when they're ordered to advance into the hills. So uh and of course, at that time, the Japanese Americans have their own battle they're fighting. So they've been fighting continuously for a week and a half, and uh they're due for arrest because uh Alexander Patch says if we get these men off for three, four days, when they come back online, they're they're fresh to go. But they they didn't have that opportunity. When the 2nd Battalion finally came off, uh 1st Battalion, no, 2nd Battalion, uh the 442 came off the line, that they'd already been in combat week and a half, but then they got orders to uh um uh reinforce the 141st. So that's what they did, and then they even tried to advance, but they ran into a uh volley of machine gun fire, uh snipers, uh traps, uh booby traps, uh, mines. It was it was horrendous, but uh they couldn't advance any further, and then I think by October 26, that's when uh Dahlquist ordered the uh 100th and the uh 3rd battalion of the 442nd to go ahead and effect the rescue.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so at this point, uh our battalion has gone through German lines because the Germans led them, they've sealed the trap shut, and so now they need rescue.
SPEAKER_00And it was two two battalions, two battalions, yeah. The 100th and and the third battalion. They're they're giving the charge because you couldn't get three battalions in that valley, and they they only had that one road, they had that that crest line road, and the Germans knew that was the only way to go. So they had snipers, mines, booby traps on on both sides and upside the hill of the road. So, you know, it's gonna be a bloodbath, and the Japanese Americans knew it was gonna be a suicide mission, but they weren't told what what their mission was until you know a day or so before they made the rescue on October 30th. But uh it but it was it was bloody. And uh uh, you know, the 141st, they tried to break out, but they just they just couldn't do it. Uh so uh uh and then then what about the other three uh three battalions of the 141st? Well, the 3rd Battalion, uh, they were ordered by Dahlquist to go and look look for Germans. They were supposed to protect the left flank of the 3rd Battalion toward the 442 up toward the head there, but they were nowhere to be seen. So by the time the 3rd Battalion uh had taken uh the rescue of the 141st, um uh the colonel asked, where is the 3rd battalion of the 141st? And uh uh you know the officers looked at Dahlquist, and all Dahlquist gets on the radio and has the the 3rd Battalion, the 141st, come back to reinforce the the units. So, like I said, he he had them chasing uh something, and uh they were supposed to be looking out for the third battalion of the 442, and they weren't there.
SPEAKER_02So you mentioned we've got machine guns, mine snipers, the whole works blocking our our Nisse soldiers from getting to and rescuing this battalion. So, how'd they break through?
SPEAKER_00Well, uh one foot at a time. They at a certain point in time they just said, you know, gopher broke, and uh they just stood up and marched along and firing from the hip, uh, throwing hand grenades. They did have tank support where tanks could get uh at a vantage point where they could fire uh support fire, but uh most of the uh terrain was not conducive for to tanks. So they had uh you know slug it out like an infantryman on foot. And a certain point in time, uh, I think it was at Banzai Hill, uh the Japanese Americans, uh, I think this was 3rd Battalion, uh, one of the soldiers was wounded. So one of the sergeants went to uh uh provide aid, and uh a German uh shot him, and then uh he was wounded at that point. So then a medic comes and a sniper shoots the medic. And when that happens, oh my, the the ship hit the sand. That's when they they stood up and said, Enough is enough, and they just rushed up that hill and they killed every German they could see. They didn't stop until they were yeah, they found some afterwards who were hiding, but uh they were too terrified to fight. But uh after a couple battles like that, and then the German it broke the Germans back, and then on October 30th, uh in the mid-after, late afternoon, that's when uh they made the rescue. Uh 3rd Battalion I Company made the first contact.
SPEAKER_02So I'd like to skip forward to another what I think is a really pivotal story of the Nissei experience in Europe, which is uh when certain Nissei soldiers came across those who had uh recently been in a concentration camp that the Nazis had made. Can you tell us that story?
SPEAKER_00Okay, well, in March 1945, that's when the 522nd Field Artillery Battalion was attached to this to the uh 7th Army. They did not go back to Italy. Okay. Uh in March, April, that's when the 10442nd they went back to Italy to take part in the Gothic line battle on April 5. The 522nd, their job was to break the the Gothic or break the German line on the Rhine River, and they were actually attached to the 45th Infantry Division when they crossed the Rhine, who was commanded by Robert Frederick, General Robert Frederick. That same name pops up a lot. But anyhow, they they fight and fight, and they uh uh eventually reach the uh area of Landsberg Kaufing uh labor camps uh that's administered by Dachau. And this is labor camp.
SPEAKER_02So Dachau being the name of one of the very famous death camps.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's there's like about a hundred and 150, 160 subcamps of Dachal. Wow. Uh when I looked at that map, I go, holy smokes, no wonder people get uh DaCal mixed up because they're associated with all these other subcamps. And some of them were well, most of them were labor camps, and some of these camps were uh euthanasia camps.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, pretty sad. But anyhow, that's when they ran across the survivors of the California Landsburg uh labor camp, and that's where Solid Gaynor was part of this group, and he wrote a book, uh what Light One Candle, and uh he uh I think the second edition book talks about what what he experienced when he saw the soldiers of the 522nd and uh you know the the survivors or the Holocaust, they're looking at these Asian-looking guys, and uh, you know, they're they they think they're Chinese, but when when uh one of the soldiers tells the uh uh one of the survivors that I'm Japanese American, you know, this person thinks that they're still gonna die because last they knew Japan was an ally of Germany. So they thought, oh gosh, I'm gonna die anyway. But you know, they finally convinced these survivors that they were Americans, Japanese Americans, and they rendered whatever aid they could. They couldn't feed them because uh it would have shocked the body, right? The starving bodies. So, but they you know tried to give them water and blankets and whatever. Uh, but uh, you know, they ran across these these uh survivors, and of course, you know, a lot of the Nisei who came from the camps looked at these compounds and they go, Wow, that looks familiar, just like the ones back at home. Except the death, you know. I mean, but the the compound looked uh very similar to what they had what they had back in America because you had the guard tower, you had the machine guns, and uh it was, you know, it wasn't like the the death camps, but uh uh you know, just a very similar thing going on. And they were just surprised, shocked that uh a whole group of people would do this to another uh race of people. And that's where they said, Well, you know, this is this is how one group deals with uh people that they don't want. And in this case, the Jews and Japanese Americans back at home. So it was one of these things where you know, just one of these earth-shattering moments for a violent Nisei of the 522nd.
SPEAKER_02To round out their experience in Europe, I wonder if you can tell us just their battlefield statistics, the raw numbers of uh that can kind of paint a picture of their experience from the battles that you've already described to us.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Well, uh a lot of experts have said that the 10442nd is the most decorated combat unit in US military history. Uh right after the war, there was only one medal of honor awarded, and that went to Sidal Munamori on April 5 in Italy. Okay, the other 20 medals of honor were not awarded until 2000. And that's when that's when 20 uh actually there's more, but there are 20 of the Japanese Americans, the 1442nd, that received their medals of honor 54, 55, 56 years after. The war. But the only one who received it within a year uh after the war ended was Sadao Munamori, and that was at the on the Gothic line, April 5, 1945. But it took the intervention of Mike Masaoka and a senator from Utah to convince the military that you know what, this guy needs to have his distinguished service cross updated. Actually, I think he was given uh uh a medal of honor by his commanding officers at the time, but it was downgraded to DSC. And a lot of the other soldiers who definitely earned a medal of honor, all of theirs were downgraded to DSC. And that's why President Clinton ordered a uh an examination of the record to see if discrimination was really a factor in why more medals of honor were not uh given.
SPEAKER_02And 20 were awarded, I'm guessing they thought yes.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, big time, yeah. And like I said, they had uh uh over 4,000 purple hearts. I think individually there were like 9,486, but 4,000 purple hearts. Uh we had a four-star general uh give a talk when I was uh a couple years ago, and he said, you know, he's done the research. And he said, you know, there is no doubt in my mind that, you know, for the 10442nd size and length of service, they are the most decorated unit in US military history.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Well, thank you so much for giving their combat experience. Let's shift the military intelligence service over in the Pacific at this point that the the war is wrapping up, at least for the active combats in Europe, but we're still at war with Japan. The Empire has not surrendered yet. What was the role of the MIS at the end of the war there?
SPEAKER_00Well, at the end of the war, or before the end of the war, General Willoughby, who was the MacArthur's chief intelligence officer, said that the that the contributions of the Japanese Americans in the military intelligence service uh saved countless lives, and they reduced, they cut two years off the war in the Pacific. But the the thing that the Nisse did in addition to that was after the war, uh they became like my dad. My dad was counterintelligence corps uh stationed in Fakui military government team in Fukui. And his job was to break up the the uh the crime syndicates, the black market, uh repatriate prisoners of war. Uh but uh a year after that, in October 1946, that's when uh MacArthur had a change in in uh direction, and that's when the formation, the creation of Japan's uh new constitution, yeah. And uh the Japanese Americans helped uh uh help create that with the assistance of the the Japanese government. But what was really interesting is that uh Hirohito, Emperor Hirohito, when he came in contact with the Japanese American Nisei of the MIS, they had a short talk, and Hirohito said, you know, it was good that the Nisei in America chose to fight for the land that they were born. That's what Hiwohito said.
SPEAKER_02That's very interesting that he would feel that way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so and that's why the Japanese Americans fought the way they did. You know, they they were Americans and they were gonna fight for America. But they they uh were instrumental in uh uh getting the the country back uh into a more democratic state. Uh a lot of controversial stuff, of course. But uh uh to this day, Japan will not they have forsaken war. That's why you won't see Japan in hand-to-hand combat in any of these conflicts taking place around the world. It's in their constitution. Oh wow we will not fight a war. We will have a defensive force, but we will not have an offensive force that fights wars. So that's why you know a lot of stuff that's going on here that are trying to get Japan more involved in what's going on in the Middle East. That's not going to happen. They'll provide whatever support they can, but they won't provide manpower for war.
SPEAKER_02Let's skip to the home front now that the war has ended, I guess on both fronts. Uh, what was the experience of these GIs coming home from both theaters?
SPEAKER_00They were disheartened. Uh, they soon found out that things, conditions, animosity, discrimination had not changed. When they came home, uh even before the war, even after the war ended, when when the camps started to let their incarcerees free, uh most of them, a lot of them went back to California and they were denigrated, they were uh threatened, they were shot at. Uh there were some murders, uh, so they were not welcome. Uh, I think when the Nisei came back, uh, they really thought that their contributions in the Pacific and Europe would be uh tempered by, you know, we're heroes. That was not that did not happen. Okay. It would it would take decades uh before some relief came, but it was slow, it was a slow process. I keep on telling people that education is a slow process. And for for a lot of the Americans, it was. But there were some Americans who stood by their niece, and when they came home, they came home to a home that was still in good condition. Uh a lot of these people who took over the homes paid the rent and uh you know took care of the farms and whatnot, and those were few and far between. But for the most part, uh a lot of the uh Americans they made it really difficult uh to uh come back. In fact, there's a story where uh the late senator Inoue uh was in San Francisco and he stopped at a barbershop to get a haircut. He's got his arm pinned and he's got captain bars and his you know purple heart and combat infantry badge and whatnot, goes in his barbershop to get a haircut, and the barber says, I don't, I don't, I don't cut your hair. I don't cut Japan hair. And he was thinking that he wanted to hit this guy, but he he thought that not a good thing to do, so he just walked out.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_00That happened in the Bay Area.
SPEAKER_02Oh jeez, where the most Japanese Americans are. It's yeah, yeah, it's crazy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like I say, it's uh education's a slow process and it would take a long time. And that was where the you know the Badress Act 1988 finally took place, but it took a long time and it's still, it's still it's still there, it's just underground.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So to wrap our interview today, thank you so much for sharing your expertise, telling us all about the experience of these Nisei soldiers that served their country so honorably, saved a lot of lives, did amazing things. Uh, what do you hope that our listeners will take away from this interview, maybe the whole series, but particularly uh what you shared with us?
SPEAKER_00Well, I'd like to think that they they learned a little more about the trials and tribulations that the Nisei uh went through and even following generations, the Sansei, the Yonsei, the Ghost, to some degree it's similar, but for the Nisei and the Isei, they had it the toughest. You know, the Isei could never become citizens until 1952. But it took uh it took an effort of of uh blood being spilled. In fact, young old Kim says that no vets, no redress. So the thing is that you had to fight for what you got, and I think that's what made the redress um American Civil Liberties Act really happen. But it was because of that. But then again, with the resistors that were out there, they they indicated they showed that we're not doormats. So that had to take place too. But I also want to mention the women, Japanese American women were involved, and uh they they they volunteered in small numbers, but they were part of women army corps, army nurse corps, army cadet, the nurse cadet corps, and they were in most of the units, divisions, and the uh uh branches of the military, with some exceptions, like the Navy. But uh uh, like I said, they were they they played a big role also because at the camps, they were they had to take on the role that you know in under normal circumstances they never would have. But so I just want to impart to the viewer that it wasn't uh it wasn't a bed of roses even decades after the war.
SPEAKER_02Uh well, thank you for giving us that perspective. And I hope that as people learn these things, they're gonna learn from history, and that we'll never have this kind of thing happen ever again, much less uh to the degree that it did during World War II. But thank you again, Stuart Harai, for coming on. Thank you for sharing your expertise.
SPEAKER_00And I thank you for making this available. Thank you, Spencer.
SPEAKER_02Season one of History for the Reckoning is made possible by support from the JACL Mount Olympus chapter, as well as generous financial support from the Takahashi Family Foundation and the JA Community Foundation. The music was produced by Patrick Coffin. If you want to support the show, follow us on Instagram at History for the Reckoning. Sign up for our newsletter at History for the Reckoning on Substack, where you'll also find the show notes for each episode, or support us financially through Patreon at patreon.com slash history for the reckoning.
